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Jean Henri Chandler
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 Posted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Christian,
It seems to be me that it would be valuable for a number of reasons, from Academic (per the O.P.) to practical (with an eye toward things like book sales and training equipment) to pedagogic (discussing what people are doing that is working and what isn't), to have a reasonably accurate idea of what the HEMA community actually looks like. For that reason I find the HROARR survey signficant and relevant to the discussion. Anecdotal evidence and personal theories have merit as well, but wouldn't you agree there is some value in the idea of a census of HEMA practitioners world-wide or even just within North America? I am surprised that you say you don't care. Given how fast HEMA has moved in the last decade I don't really grasp why one would would not want to know what else was going on rather than just ignore one another.
Personally ,I would find it very interesting (and encouraging) if the numbers in the US are really so vast, while it would also make me wonder why so relatively few of this huge base actually show up at any given HEMA event. I've yet to attend WMAW but I know several people who have and it certainly doesn't garner thousands of attendees, neither does ISMAC or 4W. The last HEMA event I attended earlier this year probably had about 150 attendees. I think in Europe they regularly see 300 or 400 at the largest events, but still relatively few. Perhaps we need to make more of an effort as you say, to spread the word.
Perhaps even, it might be said, that the parochialization of the HEMA community has gone a bit too far, it might be a good thing for HEMA practitioners and researchers to have some realistic idea of how many other people are out there, and perhaps even what they are doing. Clearly, there are a few individual well established personalities in the HEMA world who are difficult and may be mutually incompatible, but one thing that the Europeans seem to have shown successfully is that most ordinary HEMA practitioners can get along very well and groups willing to train and fight together and share ideas between cliques (and even across language barriers) are learning at an accelerated pace.
Because whether you believe HEMA is three times bigger in Europe or roughly equal to the US today, that is a big change from say, ten years ago or even five years ago... the HEMA revival really started in the US and yet has obviously grown faster across the pond. Maybe we should all be communicating a bit better outside of our relative comfort zones and we might see less duplication of effort. Which is one good thing about myArmoury this is a place where many of us come to visit from time to time. 
Respectfully,
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jean,
By "don't care" I simply mean it's unimportant to me whether there are more practitioners in the US or Europe. As long as there are practitioners, that's what's important.
Neither should my comments be read as insular. I have close relationships with practitioners all over the world - Hammaborg's Dierk Hagedorn has become a regular research partner, and I enjoy my ties with not just that organization, but others such as the Exiles, Ochs, SES, Laurentiusgildet, Dreynschlag, Hotspur, etc. etc.
I'm just not worried about the numbers game. There's quality work being done in various parts of the world and I'm unconcerned with what percentage is done by who and where.
A better idea on event numbers, btw, runs like this (approximations, subject to year-to-year fluctuation):
4W - 90
CW - 130 (capped because of capacity)
Dijon - 130+ (so I've been told)
ISMAC - 90 (very low this year though)
WMAW - 150
HEMAA/WMAC - 60
I don't know what the numbers run for SwordFish or SWASH, but it'd be a mistake to think there are small events in the US and big ones in Europe.
The events will always have a fraction of the practicing population - they're expensive endeavors for many.
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: | | Knowing that there are gaps in our understanding of these texts, we have to decide how best to fill them with collateral evidence. What I had proposed is a recognition that there are at least two competing tendencies among modern students of WMA -- one toward a very broadly defined "Europe" or "West" which allows for more collateral evidence at the expense of clarity of subject matter, and another toward discrete, specific traditions based on individual texts, masters, or lineages, which allow for greater precision but at the expense of eligible collateral evidence. In between are various approaches based on national, ethnic, and other divisions which try to balance these opposing tendencies. This is what I call a "Unit of Analysis" problem, because the unit chosen will affect both the definition of and the available evidence for competing conceptualizations of "Western Martial Arts." |
As a member of ARMA, I'd like to chime in. I'm not sure if there are other organizations out there that subscribe to a similar pan-European structuring of the source material as ARMA does. You suggest that this approach has the disadvantage of lack of clarity or something of the sort. I'm not quite sure what you mean. But I notice that you are using the term "WMA" do describe this field. I'm not sure if you are already aware of the discussion on whether this is a good term or not. To me, it is terribly inadequate to describe either the time or the place of study. Krav Maga, boxing, Greek wrestling, etc. could all me included in "WMA." On the other hand, ARMA, the one group to my knowledge using the most inclusive approach as far as unit-of analysis is concerned, does not use the terms "WMA" or even "HEMA." One of the central terms we use is "RMA." Describing ARMA through the term "WMA" places us in a much larger field according to which we are not in any ways inclusive. Does that make sense?
In ARMA, we certainly assume a certain relationship of commonality between the sources. However, that is not our starting point. We take each source according to its own particularity. A source must be understood on its own before considering it in light of other sources. On that point, I think we may have commonality with other organizations. We are only initially inclusive or pan-European in that we look at any and all sources available in our time period. Where we disagree with other organizations is on the interpretations we draw from the texts, and it is from these interpretations that we draw conclusions on the relationships between source texts. Over time, our interpretations have led us to expect a certain commonality between the sources. Our starting point is our particular commitments in terms of our core values, methodology, credo, the inner culture of ARMA, etc. that both sets up our "unit of analysis" and that contributes somewhat to the animosity between ARMA and other organizations.
I applaud you efforts though in attempting to describe a root conflict between organizations in this field. There are some in ARMA, like myself, that would welcome an eventual reconciliation between ARMA and other groups while maintaining our own particularity. However, I believe that the animosity is much more the result of differences between the inner-culture of ARMA and that of other groups or the larger community than from the source material we select. After all, many other organizations in this field get along quite well though they look at differing selections of the sources.
Respectfully,
Greg Coffman
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Coffman wrote: |
I applaud you efforts though in attempting to describe a root conflict between organizations in this field. There are some in ARMA, like myself, that would welcome an eventual reconciliation between ARMA and other groups while maintaining our own particularity. However, I believe that the animosity is much more the result of differences between the inner-culture of ARMA and that of other groups or the larger community than from the source material we select. After all, many other organizations in this field get along quite well though they look at differing selections of the sources.
Respectfully,
Greg Coffman |
Ah, personalities, politics in human affairs can often become an obstacle to dealing with the material itself.
I do like the idea of taking each text, master or style ( whatever we want to call it ) and trying to understand each in isolation before doing cross comparisons of the general sword culture that may have had a lot of commonalities.
Each can be researched and documented separately and preserved to the degree we succeed in figuring each out.
The more experimental or creative and speculative interpretations or fusion of techniques could also be documented as various styles.
As long as researchers or organizations are careful to distinguish between the proven, the highly probable and the experimental I think we could all move in the general same direction of better understanding the art(s).
But in the real World we unfortunately have to expect disagreements that can be respectful or not so much unfortunately at times. I also assume that in period different masters didn't agree either and probably pushed their arguments to lethal duels to the death.  Hey some of the historical guys probably also had big egos and hated each other and they used sharps on each other.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Tue 28 Sep, 2010 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ruel A. Macaraeg
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| Posted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
That's pretty much all I've got on this...I don't want to derail Ruel's thread too much. |
Not at all -- this demographic information is helpful in understanding how popular the different units of analyses are, relative to each other, within the practicing community.
| Quote: | Greg Coffman wrote:
ut I notice that you are using the term "WMA" do describe this field. I'm not sure if you are already aware of the discussion on whether this is a good term or not. To me, it is terribly inadequate to describe either the time or the place of study. Krav Maga, boxing, Greek wrestling, etc. could all me included in "WMA." On the other hand, ARMA, the one group to my knowledge using the most inclusive approach as far as unit-of analysis is concerned, does not use the terms "WMA" or even "HEMA." One of the central terms we use is "RMA." Describing ARMA through the term "WMA" places us in a much larger field according to which we are not in any ways inclusive. Does that make sense? |
It does; thanks for that. I tend to arbitrarily use "WMA" to refer to "medieval" and "renaissance" arts because that's how it seems to be used most of the time, but I'll make a conscious effort to be more specific from now on.
| Quote: | Greg Coffman wrote:
We are only initially inclusive or pan-European in that we look at any and all sources available in our time period. |
This is where I think the unit-of-analysis surfaces in the ARMA context -- defining the limits of this pan-European entity. By assuming an essentially discrete "European" martial art -- a "Rosetta Stone" -- it allows ARMA and like-minded researchers to draw from a wider range of sources to aid in the reconstruction process. But where this might cause problems is in how and why one draws lines separating "European" and "non-European" sources.
For example, everybody agrees that Scotland is part of "Europe" and that Scottish sources would form part of any pan-European resource base for renaissance martial arts. Yet a cultural entity such as the Ottoman Empire, which often isn't considered European, certainly had a much greater impact on renaissance martial arts as a whole, as we can see in their many forms of arms, armor, military costume, tactics, etc. that were absorbed throughout Eastern and Central Europe. Similarly, the Nasrid Moors of Granada, another people generally left out of European rubrics, provided a model of light cavalry which the Spanish imitated with great success and which most anyone would call a renaissance European martial art.
This kind of fuzzy boundary is something more closely defined units, like the individual treatise or master, don't have. Their limits are more clearly specified, but at the expense of not being able to draw so freely from a wide body of "European" or even national or ethnic collateral sources.
| Quote: | Jean Thibodeau wrote:
But in the real World we unfortunately have to expect disagreements that can be respectful or not so much unfortunately at times. |
That's why I continue to hope that these debates can move increasingly to the formal settings of academic conferences such as the one I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. For all their (our!) shortcomings, academics are pretty good at having spirited disagreements which can nevertheless be highly productive, and all without degenerating into personal acrimony. Like martial arts themselves, academic debate is a skill that improves with practice. 
http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: |
We are only initially inclusive or pan-European in that we look at any and all sources available in our time period. |
This is where I think the unit-of-analysis surfaces in the ARMA context -- defining the limits of this pan-European entity. By assuming an essentially discrete "European" martial art -- a "Rosetta Stone" -- it allows ARMA and like-minded researchers to draw from a wider range of sources to aid in the reconstruction process. But where this might cause problems is in how and why one draws lines separating "European" and "non-European" sources.
For example, everybody agrees that Scotland is part of "Europe" and that Scottish sources would form part of any pan-European resource base for renaissance martial arts. Yet a cultural entity such as the Ottoman Empire, which often isn't considered European, certainly had a much greater impact on renaissance martial arts as a whole, as we can see in their many forms of arms, armor, military costume, tactics, etc. that were absorbed throughout Eastern and Central Europe. Similarly, the Nasrid Moors of Granada, another people generally left out of European rubrics, provided a model of light cavalry which the Spanish imitated with great success and which most anyone would call a renaissance European martial art.
This kind of fuzzy boundary is something more closely defined units, like the individual treatise or master, don't have. Their limits are more clearly specified, but at the expense of not being able to draw so freely from a wide body of "European" or even national or ethnic collateral sources.
[/quote]
Ruel,
This is certainly a legitimate point. However, it seems to me that if we are going to look at the Ottoman Empire and the Nassid Moors, then we need to be comparing primary sources, which in this case, would be the Muslim equivalent of a fechtbuch. Are there such sources in existence? I am entirely ignorant about Muslim regions at this time.
Remember that ARMA is concerned with the reconstruction of the martial arts preserved in European fighting manuscripts from the late 13th through roughly the late 17th centuries. Military tactics, unit organization, and that sort of thing- the various features you have mentioned in your two examples- fall outside of the specific concerns and research interests of ARMA. Thus, what is needed are primary sources dealing with personal armed combat from the Near East so that a comparison can be made.
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Craig Shackleton
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| Posted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: |
Remember that ARMA is concerned with the reconstruction of the martial arts preserved in European fighting manuscripts from the late 13th through roughly the late 17th centuries. Military tactics, unit organization, and that sort of thing- the various features you have mentioned in your two examples- fall outside of the specific concerns and research interests of ARMA. Thus, what is needed are primary sources dealing with personal armed combat from the Near East so that a comparison can be made. |
I just want to point out that this is another example of how defining our sources affects our results. There is some evidence and many proponents for the belief that historical European martial artists did not separate battle from duel from self-defense etc. Most techniques we see in fechtbuchs apply to both armoured and unarmoured combat, mounted and foot combat, etc. Talhoffer particularly gives us these, plus techniques for crossbow and a whole bevy of material for siege warfare and other stuff. A large part of George Silver's rant against the rapier is based on its inapplicability to battle. To say from the get-go that we don't look at reconstructing these arts within the context of military tactics creates an automatic void in our understanding.
This isn't a criticism exactly. I think it's unreasonable for any group to try and cover the whole big picture. I certainly can't do that. It's actually significantly harder for us to do it in a modern context, since we don't use horses in the proportion they did, or fight real battles or duels with their equipment anymore. We all understand and accept that we have these limitations (I think). I'm just pointing out/acknowledging that the fact that most of us ignore the military context is another limiter.
I personally know that my interpretations work in my context. My swordplay works with my footwork in personal combat. I think it would work on horseback, but can't test it. I can't really say with regards to unit tactics, or in the context of quickly training soldiers, or a bunch of other situations that were once fundamental to HEMA or similar arts. It's hard to simulate these contexts, and we mostly choose not to because it's already hard enough working in a very limited context. I do wonder if I am missing things though. Would I modify my cuts if I sometimes did them mounted? If I need to be able to do the same cuts while packed in a group? Facing multiple opponents?
I have actually played with some of these things in the past, but it's been so long that it's safe to say I don't know how they affect or are affected by my current interpretation.
Ottawa Swordplay
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | A better idea on event numbers, btw, runs like this (approximations, subject to year-to-year fluctuation): |
Ah... now we are getting somewhere interesting. I asked some of my European friends to contribute to this. So from your numbers, here is North America sorted by size:
WMAW - 150
CW - 130 (capped because of capacity)
4W - 90
ISMAC - 90 (very low this year though)
HEMAA/WMAC - 60
I would also add Dixie Krieg - 40
And here is some of Europe, based on what I was just told (and the numbers were low there as well this year due to the depression):
Fight Camp (UK) - 150
SWASH (UK) - circa 150
Dijon (France) - 130
Swordfish (Sweden)- 120
Colin Richards (Germany)- 120
| Quote: | | I don't know what the numbers run for SwordFish or SWASH, but it'd be a mistake to think there are small events in the US and big ones in Europe. |
So perhaps not many more in any individual event, but so far it looks like substantially more large events than in North America, not that, as you say, it matters much in any absolute sense. But it is relevant to the O.P., in that it would seem like like any analysis of HEMA research should include HEMAC, GHFS, Schola Gladiatoria, Boars Tooth, AHF Bristol, Dreynschlag, Hammabourg, AZEA, and etc.. as well as with the people associated with the Houston and Tallahassee events.
Presumably, ARMA has done some large event, maybe they could chime in as to numbers, and I know there are large events in Spain and Eastern Europe but I don't have those numbers yet, I'll post them when I do.
| Quote: | | The events will always have a fraction of the practicing population - they're expensive endeavors for many. |
Of course, but given the number of regional events (there are two within driving distance of my home each year now) I would assume huge numbers of practitioners would draw larger crowds eventually, though I've been told 200 attendees is something of a 'sweet spot' in organizational terms which may not be surpassed for some time. Still, it's encouraging to see how many large events are going on now every year, it was hard to imagine anything like this ten years ago.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Thu 30 Sep, 2010 8:51 am; edited 4 times in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: |
For example, everybody agrees that Scotland is part of "Europe" and that Scottish sources would form part of any pan-European resource base for renaissance martial arts. Yet a cultural entity such as the Ottoman Empire, which often isn't considered European, certainly had a much greater impact on renaissance martial arts as a whole, as we can see in their many forms of arms, armor, military costume, tactics, etc. that were absorbed throughout Eastern and Central Europe. Similarly, the Nasrid Moors of Granada, another people generally left out of European rubrics, provided a model of light cavalry which the Spanish imitated with great success and which most anyone would call a renaissance European martial art. |
Not to mention Jews, considering the importance of Jewish masters such as Ott Jud and Jud Leow, we do not know the ultimate origins of their MA particularly their contributions to Ringen.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Ruel A. Macaraeg
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| Posted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Craig Peters wrote:
This is certainly a legitimate point. However, it seems to me that if we are going to look at the Ottoman Empire and the Nassid Moors, then we need to be comparing primary sources, which in this case, would be the Muslim equivalent of a fechtbuch. Are there such sources in existence? I am entirely ignorant about Muslim regions at this time. |
I know that several such manuscripts exist from Mamluk Egypt, which is especially revealing since they eventually adopted many European knightly conventions such as heraldry which speak to a strong mutual influence of martial traditions. See Mayer, Saracenic Heraldry; Nicolle, Mamluks 1260-1517. I have to believe that the still largely untapped archives of the Ottomans, Mamluks, and other Euro-adjacent peoples must certainly have something to say on the subject of fighting. At least one group, the Furusiyya Art Foundation, seems to be working on that (furusiyya being an Arabic term describing martial texts).
But the larger question is whether people subscribing to a pan-European unit of analysis would be willing to accept such cultures as "European." At least some of the writers drawn on for ideological inspiration by certain medieval/renaissance martial researchers, such as Thomas Madden and Victor Davis Hanson, show clear favoritism for a "Clash of Civilizations" view that runs counter to the evidence of porous martial-cultural boundaries.
(See, for example, some of the quotes I've begun collecting here:
http://forensicfashion.com/PositionStatements...tions.html
http://forensicfashion.com/PositionStatementsWesternWayOfWar.html )
Would folks be willing to call Tatars, Janissaries, and Barbary Corsairs "European" -- essentially, discarding the notion of a coherent self-contained European martial tradition in order to mine the evidence available from these cultures? I get the sense that this would trouble alot of people.
| Quote: | Craig Shackleton wrote:
I just want to point out that this is another example of how defining our sources affects our results. There is some evidence and many proponents for the belief that historical European martial artists did not separate battle from duel from self-defense etc. |
This would probably constitute yet another type of "unit-of-analysis" problem -- whether the unit of martial context should be limited to certain types of fighting, or certain levels of combat (ie. individual vs. tactical or strategic). I don't know if a satisfactory solution can ever be reached on any of these unit-of-analysis paradoxes, but at the same time talking them out -- standardizing and defining methodologies to go with each type of unit -- would go a long way toward facilitating discussion and productive sharing of information, both among "European" martial artists and with other world martial traditions.
http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Ruel A. Macaraeg
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| Posted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Jean,
Looks like I was writing while you posted and missed your contributions; thanks for the input and statistics. The Jewish contribution, too, is something I hope people of that persuasion will take up, as there is no shortage of Jewish heritage organizations.
I'm going to take a look at your group website! You're not too far from me here in Dallas; hopefully that proximity can allow for some regional get-togethers, be they TEMA, some renfair, or what-not.
http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Shackleton wrote: | | Craig Peters wrote: |
Remember that ARMA is concerned with the reconstruction of the martial arts preserved in European fighting manuscripts from the late 13th through roughly the late 17th centuries. Military tactics, unit organization, and that sort of thing- the various features you have mentioned in your two examples- fall outside of the specific concerns and research interests of ARMA. Thus, what is needed are primary sources dealing with personal armed combat from the Near East so that a comparison can be made. |
I just want to point out that this is another example of how defining our sources affects our results. There is some evidence and many proponents for the belief that historical European martial artists did not separate battle from duel from self-defense etc. Most techniques we see in fechtbuchs apply to both armoured and unarmoured combat, mounted and foot combat, etc. Talhoffer particularly gives us these, plus techniques for crossbow and a whole bevy of material for siege warfare and other stuff. A large part of George Silver's rant against the rapier is based on its inapplicability to battle. To say from the get-go that we don't look at reconstructing these arts within the context of military tactics creates an automatic void in our understanding.
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Nor do we in ARMA separate fighting on the battlefield from fighting off the battlefield. However, the study of tactics, unit organization, etc. is quite different from the study of fighting itself. We certainly believe that the skills used in handling a pike, halberd, longsword, etc., are the same whether you are fighting in a group or solo. That's martial arts. However, the study of tactics is military science. Although they are related, they are not the same. In ARMA we study martial arts. Military science, though related, is a peripheral interest.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Over the last 14 years I've had over 200 + people filter though my Highland broadsword class or my German Longsword class. Many of the prior broadsword students got the basics down and a few were quite good. Many moved away or lost interest.
So, I'd hate to think a 1/3 of the USA numbers came from me... as I'm not counted at all.
Cheers,
David Teague
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Max Chouinard
Location: Quebec, Qc Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: |
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The numbers can also be explained by distance/transportation. While it is quite easy to travel from Germany to Spain, it is quite another thing to make Ontario-Florida. The distance and the development of the transportation system is one of the major obstacles to a successful event.
The event I organise QFS (Quebec city's fencing symposium) attracted about 24 people. The HEMA crowd is much bigger in Quebec, some schools alone have around 50 students. But then I didn't had enough room for anyone more, the instructors didn't wanted more on their workshops, and a lot of people said they would have attended if it wasn't for the trip (sometimes a 3 hour long road trip that can cost about 80$ around here). It is just ridiculously expensive and long compared to Europe. So I would say that the attendance is not a good indicator, as you can do many events in Europe in a year, but only one or two in North America for the same budget.
Hey, I can even afford to do my event in French, as I know all my attendance will be local French speaking, while all European events are in English as they receive guests from different countries.
Maxime Chouinard
Antrim Bata
Quebec City Kenjutsu
I don't do longsword
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: | Over the last 14 years I've had over 200 + people filter though my Highland broadsword class or my German Longsword class. Many of the prior broadsword students got the basics down and a few were quite good. Many moved away or lost interest.
So, I'd hate to think a 1/3 of the USA numbers came from me... as I'm not counted at all.
Cheers,
David Teague |
David,
I think you are misunderstanding the survey, or I am misunderstanding you. The survey is counting current active dues- paying members of HEMA groups only, not the total number of people who have at any time been members of a group or taken a class over a period of 14 years.
That may seem arbitrary but if you think about it, in order to measure anything you have to have some kind of standard of measurement according to the same criteria. I would assume that every HEMA school has seen people come and go over the years.
I hope that clarifies it somewhat.
If you were not part of the survey I'd reccomend contacting them and filling out the form, I am certain they would be glad to hear from you. How many active members do you have in your group?
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | [ The survey is counting current active dues- paying members of HEMA groups only, |
Hello Jean,
No I was being droll as " I don't count"... under the rules of the survey.
My co-instructor and I volunteer our teaching time, we supply starter gear for beginners, we carry a 2 million dollar insurance policy to teach that we pay for out of our own pocket, we don't charge for our time nor do we charge dues. We do it for the love of Historic Fencing, to become better fencers, better instructors and we both make our livelihood elsewhere.
I currently have 22 longsword students but never can get them all in the same place at one time, Matt has 10ish Broadsword students. Out of those numbers we have 10 strong hardcore students that have traveled with me to events across the USA over the last 18 months at great cost to themselves, but none of us count under the rules of the survey as we don't pay dues.
Cheers,
David
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi David,
| David Teague wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | [ The survey is counting current active dues- paying members of HEMA groups only, |
Hello Jean,
No I was being droll as " I don't count"... under the rules of the survey.
My co-instructor and I volunteer our teaching time, we supply starter gear for beginners, we carry a 2 million dollar insurance policy to teach that we pay for out of our own pocket, we don't charge for our time nor do we charge dues. We do it for the love of Historic Fencing, to become better fencers, better instructors and we both make our livelihood elsewhere.
I currently have 22 longsword students but never can get them all in the same place at one time, Matt has 10ish Broadsword students. Out of those numbers we have 10 strong hardcore students that have traveled with me to events across the USA over the last 18 months at great cost to themselves, but none of us count under the rules of the survey as we don't pay dues. |
As far as I understand the survey in question had the purpose to get an idea of how many active HEMA practitioners there are, with the idea in particular that having a somewhat reliable estimate would be convenient to convince equipment manufacturers to address the specific needs of the activity. I think they put in the instructions to count paying members only so that the numbers were not artificially inflated by counting for example all the people that show up at the first lesson and never come back, because these will never be purchasing any kind of equipment anyway...
So I think that if you give them an estimate of how many 'permanent' members you have whether they pay for membership or not, they'll be happy to put your group in the survey as well.
Actually I appear in the survey counted as unassociated practitioner. I'm not paying myself But I'd be interested by the equipment anyway, so I asked. Though I'm feeling kind of alone in that category 
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Presumably, ARMA has done some large event, maybe they could chime in as to numbers... |
We do an in-house event every two years. Last year it was 80. The time before that I think was 100.
Greg Coffman
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Hello All,
I've held a handful of event up here but nobody other than the instructor comes to Alaska for the event. My student count falls some where between 14-26 students depending on who's in town.
I'm planing on bringing up Jörg Bellinghausen of Ochs for a long weekend of KDF goodness next summer, Jessica Finley this winter for a 2 day Ott wrestling seminar and I'm hoping to have Tom Leoni up late next summer for a 3 day class in the Spadone...
Then I'll try to get 8 to 10 of us to WMAW in Sept.
Cheers,
DT
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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