[Mihai Ionita]

Heh, I have received replies beyond my imagining. There must be something in the water.

First of all, I must thank you for the comprehensive post on civilian fashion and the falling out of the cottehardie, Jonathan. I knew the houppelande came into fashion in the 1380s but I did not know the cottehardie had disappeared by then. That is very useful and, at the same time, somewhat disappointing information since I love the look of the cottehardie and its pigeon breasted figure.

Also, what exactly is a grande-assiette and how does it aid an arming garment? Doesn't it basically refer to a bigger than usual sleeve?

As for my position in society, I had long decided upon those aspects and now I was only curious about the finer points of arming myself. My position shall be that of a middling Wallachian Boyar's son with a penchant for Western dress and equipment. This will allow me to outfit myself in armour that is a little bit behind the bend in the West (much as your Lowlands noble, David) since it took some time for changes in fashion to reach Wallachia. Still, considering the standards present here, the armour would constitute something of a cutting edge in military equipment. The period I will be aiming to portray will be the years 1390-1410 so you can expect something similar to the image I attached in my first post with some textile covering over the armour.

Regarding the fashion delay (similar to the delay present in Scotland, incidentally, if a bit slower) and fashion influences would that delay allow the presence of cottehardies? Or were they so completely phased out that people ceased to wear them altogether?

[Bjorn Hagstrom]

[Kristian Fagerström]

Sugarloaf:

Ok, I really like the lines of what I consider to be a "classical" sugarloaf.
I intend to acquire one, but I would like to have one that _is_ correct and not just something I _think_ is correct.

So i wonder:
Where can I find good documentation on what they really looked like, where they were primarily used, and hopefully a suggestion on where to buy one.
I need the documentation so I can make the rest of the armour as correct as possible.

I am active in the SCA, and I intend to play with the live steel fighters in eastern europe, so it needs to stand up to punishment.

Help?

[Sam Gordon Campbell]

[quote="Kristian Fagerström"]Sugarloaf:

I am active in the SCA, and I intend to play with the live steel fighters in eastern europe, so it needs to stand up to punishment.quote]

Hey, that's what I'm trying to do as well!
I mean, I'll have to travel to Eastern Europe, and actualy piece together my 13thC. kit, but yeah, travelin to fight and fighting to travel

[David Teague]

Hello Mihai,

First I've read of backwater places holding on to a style of garment years past it peak in the finer courts of Europe. Even in paintings of the better courts of Europe you'll see staff and lesser nobles in styles that aren't suppose to be in style any more. Just like today, it took exceess funds to stay at the edge of fashion in clothing, arms and armour.

Not everyone could keep up and some (like today) didn't jump on each change.

My lesser knight is wearing cottehardie in 1388 as his nice garment and an older simple style of tunic as his traveling kit. My arming coat has grande-assiette sleeves... its where the sleeves attach to the shoulder that's larger. Look at the pictures again and you see that sleeve and coat are quite smooth in the back, even though I'm in the middle of a hip throw at speed. The coat is where I point my leg harness and it places the weight across my hips, not the shoulders, like a good modern backpack.

The harness you linked is far more cutting edge of style by 1400-1410, something closer to my harness would be period but out of date like you'd see in a backwater or in the hands of a lesser noble, one with money problems, or a well to do free man serving as a "man at arms".

Cheers,

David

[Chuck Russell]

[Jonathan Blair]

[T. Hamilton]

[Randall Moffett]

Are you referring to the combo of great helm and COPs or visor on great helm?

COPs and the armoured surcoat that came well before 1300 so it easily could be couple with great helms. The great helm was used for war into the mid 14th as well. The visored great helm shows up in at least one picture and two texts in the early 1290s.

RPM

[T. Hamilton]

[Mihai Ionita]

Greetings once more,

These days I've been intensely studying the social make-up of Romanian society in the Fourteenth and Fifteenth centuries, so as to determine exactly who I will be on the social ladder. You can imagine I shall be no prince but neither shall I be a pauper if I want to wear some plate on me. From my studies and research I have come to the conclusion that the cottehardie was well in use and in fashion in the Romanian countries up until the end of the Fourteenth century. From then on, I suppose some sort of combination-wear became popular but I am not exactly certain how big of a role the Houppelande had to play. Romanian voivodes (basically, princes which led the Romanian countries) were usually depicted in Church frescoes in the Byzantine fashion (and in about 200 years their clothes didn't change one bit) but from my impressions of the sources, the Romanian nobility (the boyars and their retinues) were somewhat prone to Western fashions.

Based on Romania's geographic position, I suppose Italy and the German states had a stronger influence on the Romanian countries, though there was a contingent of English mercenaries at Bran Castle at the end of the Fourteenth Century. The reason why I suppose Italo-German influences were stronger is because Italy and Germany were direct neighbours of Poland and Hungary which, in their turn, were direct neighbours of the Romanian countries, with which they interacted almost non-stop, both diplomatically, economically and militarily.

The problem is, I can't find any definitive book which deals with Romanian fashions in the Middle Ages, so this sort of turns the Fifteenth century into a black hole for me in terms of civilian fashion. So, if I choose a Houppelande for my fancy civilian garb I might be taking a bit of a risk. Still, the background for my persona is pretty well set to deal with any and all possible questions regarding garb.

In light of this, I strongly believe I shall be portraying a young (well, I can't really portray anyone old, since I myself am barely eighteen years of age) Romanian Viteaz from Făgăraş who was fostered somewhere in the Italian countries and who returned to his homeland. This shall justify any Western-style garments and can be easily explained to any detractors.

Let me remember if I had any more particular questions. Ah, yes. Do you have any "Greater" Knights in your household, David? And can you provide more details about the organization of your particular household (number of military personnel, number of auxiliary personnel, what kind of secondary objects are important for accurate reenacting i.e. pots, bottles etc.)? Also, do you have a website for your group?

Thanks in advance.

[Mihai Ionita]

I've a new question, this time regarding brigandines.

How exactly did brigandines of the early Fifteenth century look like? Were they similar to Visby-style brigandines or were they different. And who wore brigandines mainly? Were they the poor-man's version of plate-armour?

[Jojo Zerach]

[Felix R.]

[Romulus Stoica]

In XIV and XV century Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia, the emphasis was put on mobility because the main enemy was the Otoman Empire. The turks used less armor than the western armies and their main weapons were the sabre and the bow.
So most common armor in our region was padded cloth, maille and forms of brigandine. The breastplates were used, but they were not so common, especially when speaking about lower classes and lesser nobility. In Walachia (were was the Fagaras county), breastplates were less common than in Transylvania for example.
Here you can see some reconstructions made by Radu Oltean an artist who made some ilustrations for historic books, based on medieval frescoes and paintings , mainly from Transylvania (click on the small thumbnails to see a larger version of his posters).
http://www.historyarts.ro/afise.htm