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Jeff A. Arbogast





Joined: 16 Oct 2008

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sat 24 Jul, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Mihai Ionita"]Romania? I'm from Romania! How do you know they are from Romania, though? Their site mentions not their home. Still, this should be potentially great news. Do they do custom work (like say a custom cottehardie or houppelande)?

Excuse me but I think I made a mistake. They are actually based in the Ukraine. I know because the package I got was posted from there, and that was where the dress was actually made. But that's still not that far from you. Here is their web site-http://www.armstreet.com/terms.html . They have a U. S. contact address now (things may have changed a bit since I ordered from them), but if they ship from the Ukraine that may still be helpful to you. They do custom work as well, and are very helpful with your questions.
As I said, I thought the item I bought (a medieval dress and matching shoes) couldn't be beat for quality and price. Their armor, etc. also appears to be made much as in the days of yore...hand-hammered, etc. I really like their costumes but I've spent enough for awhile I'm afraid.

A man's nose is his castle-and his finger is a mighty sword that he may wield UNHINDERED!
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Jeff A. Arbogast





Joined: 16 Oct 2008

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PostPosted: Sat 24 Jul, 2010 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, I forgot to add this-here's a picture of the dress I ordered. They asked for all her measurements and it fit perfectly.


 Attachment: 141.67 KB
Judy's dress.jpg


A man's nose is his castle-and his finger is a mighty sword that he may wield UNHINDERED!
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Jul, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bjorn Hagstrom wrote:
My opinion is that the Charles de Blois garment is civilian. Mainly due to the buttons that do not make sense if any armour would go on top. Points would have been a more practical choice if that where the case.

Civilian fashion have a tendency of mimicing military (just see how camouflage hats and pants are worn today, or coifs back in the day) but probably exaggerated or modified in a way that look good but might not be military sound. That is the logic behind having three different garments that has the same style. Wearing them all at once might not be very realistic though.

My assumption would be that a servicable pourpoint for that timeframe would be of the same cut (especially the arms) as the Charle de Blois but less puffy. Exact thickness I know people have very different opinions on. We simply do not know. So you might as well do some trial and error and find a good compromise for fit, safety and comfort.


Well, buttons are not a problem to go under maille or breast plates. I have cloth buttons on my arming jack.
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Mihai Ionita




Location: Romania
Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Mon 26 Jul, 2010 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So far so good, so to say, but there are still several very important unanswered questions.

First of all, civilian garb (and a bit military I guess too). What exactly was worn with preponderance between 1390-1410 when it came to shoes? Those pointed, leather affairs? If so, were the steel sabatons worn directly over leather shoes (I've seen some armour manufacturers ask for leather shoe measurements before custom-making sabatons)?

Second of all, steel. My previous questions are still without a satisfactory answer.

Most armour I've seen is cold-rolled mild steel. I kinda know what types of steel there are (still, a recap from someone who actually uses them would help) but I don't understand the differences between cold-rolling and hot-rolling steel (or lukewarm-rolling, if there is such a thing).

Also, what is better for full-contact fighting in armour, riveted maille or butted maille? I've heard some reports that the rivets of riveted maille have a bothersome tendency of falling off at certain points. I would assume that only applies to the ever-abundant Indian maille, right?
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cold rolling means that the steel is not heated before enters the rolling mill, this means the steel sheet has a different crystalline structure than the hot rolled steel, that is heated before entering the rolling mill. The cold rolled steel is more resilient than hot rolled steel.
In full contact fighting a maille, is not much of a protection without a very good gambeson ... and if you really want maille for full contact (i would recommend some form of plate tough), then it has to be riveted.
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Mihai Ionita




Location: Romania
Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Mon 26 Jul, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My dear Romică,

Rest assured that I would have probably bothered with these issues over the phone in the near future. Right now I was just combing farther waters before discussing with an authority closer to home. I want to have a...let's say well-rounded view of everyone's opinion. I want to know what everyone thinks and I want to know what everyone recommends before pooling together advice and making a final decision.

Still, your contribution regarding the way steel is rolled is quite informative. Hm, so cold-rolled steel is stronger than hot rolled. Cool. I knew that not.

As for maille, I was just asking for when it came to choosing a maille haubergeon to wear under plate. I wasn't going to go all "William Marshal" and fight full contact with just maille. I think I care about my limbs too much for that sort of foolhardy decision.

Good, so that settles it.

Now, what can you fine people of myArmoury tell me about the fabled Spring-Steel? Is it worth its price in salt?
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Mihai Ionita




Location: Romania
Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 1:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is there no one out there who has experience of spring steel?

No one?

And what was historically in use at the beginning of the Fifteenth century in terms of steel? What we would call today mild steel, or what?
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Ozsváth Árpád-István




Location: Romania
Joined: 27 Apr 2008

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Salut Mihai!

The problem with spring steel is that springs are made from a large variety of steels with medium or high carbon content. It might be carbon steel or alloy steel. The most common spring steel you can find in Romania is Trabant leaf-spring or Raba cabin suspension (I like those, they are 1280x45x7 mm straight pieces) . It's important to know the type of steel for some must be quenched in water, others in oil some are air-quenchable. I used Raba cabin leaf-spring for my sword and I decided better not to mess with heat-treating. The material was hard enough to hold a decent edge - well, that's what the craftsman said who did the finishing for my blade. A softer sword is always better than a broken one.
Now for the mild steel... The majority of metallic objects are made from mild steel, including the case of your PC. This is the material that we call "iron". In fact it's not pure iron, it's some alloy containing a wide range of elements like S, Mn, Cr, Ni etc. to improve some specific properties. Well, this material is not goodfor blades.
In our country it's hard to buy good material. You can't just simply walk in a hardware store and ask for a piece of L6 steel. They never heard about that.
Some say that ball-bearings are excellent material for knives, especially large Swedish ones.
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Mihai Ionita




Location: Romania
Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Salut Árpád (or should I call you István?)!

It is good to see another Romanian member on the forum. I assume you are a colleague of Romulus' when it comes to medieval reenacting, right? Or just a sword-fan?

Either way, your insights into the way one can acquire good steel in Romania were quite interesting nonetheless, but I was rather more interested about spring steel used in armour rather than blades, since armour is of somewhat more immediate interest to me.

Well, either way, more opinions and insights are welcome both on this subject and on others.

Speaking of other subjects, let's talk a bit about soft kit since I have a question. When wearing your soft-kit (and I'm talking about early Fifteenth and late Fourteenth) do you wear a doublet over your chemise or do you just strap on some outer-clothes over the shirt? And speaking of which, were cotte-hardies historically worn with just a shirt under or with a doublet over the shirt?

I am really curious to hear what you guys have to say on this subject (or what threads you can link me to in which the subject is explained, or links to books which can enlighten me).

And you are still welcome to share your opinions on the manufacturers I listed in my initial post (along with anecdotes of your work relationship, if you've had commissions from them). For those of you who cannot remember, the manufacturers were:

http://www.bestarmour.com/

http://www.armorymarek.com/

http://armourandcastings.com/index.php

http://www.armabohemia.cz/Novestr/homeA.htm

http://steel-mastery.com/index.php?&model..._page_id=1

I'm trying to accurately inform myself with regard to the foreign market.
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Basically, with spring steel (whatever correct name it has) or case hardened steel you can go thinner and lighter. My actual arms are made from spring steel, they are 1mm in most parts and really tough. My next set of arms and gauntlets will be from C45. Which is also quite tough and will result in material thickness of about 1mm in most areas too, resulting in light and tough armour.
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bjorn Hagstrom wrote:
My opinion is that the Charles de Blois garment is civilian. Mainly due to the buttons that do not make sense if any armour would go on top. Points would have been a more practical choice if that where the case.

Civilian fashion have a tendency of mimicing military (just see how camouflage hats and pants are worn today, or coifs back in the day) but probably exaggerated or modified in a way that look good but might not be military sound. That is the logic behind having three different garments that has the same style. Wearing them all at once might not be very realistic though.

My assumption would be that a servicable pourpoint for that timeframe would be of the same cut (especially the arms) as the Charle de Blois but less puffy. Exact thickness I know people have very different opinions on. We simply do not know. So you might as well do some trial and error and find a good compromise for fit, safety and comfort.

Actually, even though the Charles de Blois doublet is civilian (it's not the buttons but the absolute lack of wear on the silk outer shell that would be found consistent with wearing armour), the garment is viable as a military garment. Have the person who sews your doublet/pourpoint change the buttons on both the front and the arms with spiral lacing and make the outer shell a heavy canvas grade linen and you'd be set. You'd might want a port-piece to hide any gap behind the spiral lacing. A cotehardie, while period to 1340-1370's, fell out of fashion by the end of the 14th century, being replaced with the houpelande, a garment with very wide and full sleeves. A cotehardie doesn't have the grande-assiette sleeves that make arm movement so much easier, making it less suitable for an under armour garment.

Mihai Ionita wrote:
First of all, civilian garb (and a bit military I guess too). What exactly was worn with preponderance between 1390-1410 when it came to shoes? Those pointed, leather affairs? If so, were the steel sabatons worn directly over leather shoes (I've seen some armour manufacturers ask for leather shoe measurements before custom-making sabatons)?

Shoes at the time were turnshoes. The tip of the shoe was pointed to varying degrees as fashion and laws changed, but the tip usually is at least a little pointed. Boots were typically no higher than the ankle and used for working in the field (there are a few high boots, but they were strictly for riding based off of illuminations from the time). The sabatons would lace directly to a pair of dedicated turnshoes with a point (or lace) at the toe of the sabaton with no padding between. Sometimes a small piece of maille sewn directly to the turnshoe filled in the gaps between the sabaton and the greave.

Mihai Ionita wrote:
Also, what is better for full-contact fighting in armour, riveted maille or butted maille? I've heard some reports that the rivets of riveted maille have a bothersome tendency of falling off at certain points. I would assume that only applies to the ever-abundant Indian maille, right?

Butted maille was not seen in late 14th/early 15th century Europe; IIRC, it was an invention of the Victorian era revivalists. Most maille by the late 14th century had become the all-riveted type (before that was a preponderance of alternating solid and riveted rings). Most, but not all, maile was flattened and fairly small inside diameter (6-7mm), although round did exist. Rivets were more often the wedge type. Dan Howard on this site could tell you more. You can read his article http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_mail.html.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Zac Evans




Location: London
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My leg armour is spring steel, and it is brilliant. Doesn't dent and only scratches a little. Very light too. However, it is more important that you get a good fit, so as money is an object in this case go to a better armourer and get mild steel rather than spending the money on a spring steel set that don't fit as well.
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Ozsváth Árpád-István




Location: Romania
Joined: 27 Apr 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 9:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The best mail was a combination of solid and riveted rings. I guess it's enough to use only the 1/3 of the total amount for open rings.
I don't understand why we still use riveted mail, when you can just simply weld together the open links. It will last longer and offers better protection. Maybe it's historically inaccurate, but you can't tell the difference from butted mail. There must be a simple solution, chains are mass-produced this way and maybe it was possible 500 years ago.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ozsváth Árpád-István wrote:
The best mail was a combination of solid and riveted rings. I guess it's enough to use only the 1/3 of the total amount for open rings.
I don't understand why we still use riveted mail, when you can just simply weld together the open links. It will last longer and offers better protection. Maybe it's historically inaccurate, but you can't tell the difference from butted mail. There must be a simple solution, chains are mass-produced this way and maybe it was possible 500 years ago.


Well I have a welded stainless maile shirt made by " The ring Lord " I haven't tested how strong the links are but it's a good modern solution if one doesn't put historical accuracy high in one's priorities.

The mail is very fine and very light weight.

http://theringlord.com/images/products/Finish...S22532.jpg

The guy in the site's pic is very thin so it looks rather loose.

http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplaycatego...5554599804

Welder system pics and movie: http://www.theringlord.org/forum/Index.php?/t...elder-kit/

I think there was a way to weld maille in period but it would have been very very slow and labour intensive and much more costly to be practical except for the very rich: No electric welding or gas welding so I would guess some large mass of metal heated to welding heat and where the ring end could be brought in contact and heat up to welding heat. Maybe some very wide based mass coming to a point like a large cone ? Not sure how it would have been done in period but some welded maille seems to exist in period I think but I don't know how it was made exactly.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jul, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:


Actually, even though the Charles de Blois doublet is civilian (it's not the buttons but the absolute lack of wear on the silk outer shell that would be found consistent with wearing armour), the garment is viable as a military garment. Have the person who sews your doublet/pourpoint change the buttons on both the front and the arms with spiral lacing and make the outer shell a heavy canvas grade linen and you'd be set. You'd might want a port-piece to hide any gap behind the spiral lacing. A cotehardie, while period to 1340-1370's, fell out of fashion by the end of the 14th century, being replaced with the houpelande, a garment with very wide and full sleeves. A cotehardie doesn't have the grande-assiette sleeves that make arm movement so much easier, making it less suitable for an under armour garment.


Well, I stand corrected Happy

As a side note, I am currently in the process of making a horrible bastard under-armour garment. It is basically a somewhat tailored tunic, open and overlapping in front but with grand assiette sleeves. The reason for making it like this is mostly that I wanted to practice making a tailored grand assiette on something invisible before doing it in more precious fabric. Also I have seen examples of aketons/gambessons where the arm movements have been a bit constricted. It will be worn under mail or at least a surcoat so it does not look too horrible

The core is thick wool felt and one layer of polyester padding. The shell is four layers of linen. Since the design is very much pulled out my arse I thought that making the stuffing of proper loose material like cotton wool or horsehair would be too much of a pain. I am however handquilting it since I seem to have more patience that common sense...

I attached a picture of the cut pieces laid out. I originally thougth I would use two layers of felt, but it proved too heavy. One layer seemed a bit flimsy (which it probably was not btw) so that is why I added the layer of polyester padding. On a plus side, I can now make two of them! Or scrap the first if it turns out badly and make adjustments to the extra pieces.

But back on the subject of civilian clothing...if the cotehardie does not have grand assiette tailoring, then it would be a set in tailored sleeve, would it not?



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Zac Evans




Location: London
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 1:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maille was not welded in period. The only way you could get solid links into a hauberk would be to link them in with rivetted links. This does work very well incidentally, and can cut down the weight of the hauberk quite effectively. I fight in a rivetted maille shirt, which is very heavy, and my brother fights in a hybrid rivetted/solid shirt, and my brothers feels so much lighter. Neither have needed anything in the way of upkeep yet from re-enactment fighting.
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Ozsváth Árpád-István




Location: Romania
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 2:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just wondering if spring washers (maybe combined with simple washers) are good for a heavy-duty hauberk. They come in all shapes and sizes, galvanized, zinc plated, nickel plated, black etc. They have really strong material.
In the communist era you could get tons of material for a few drinks, nowadays they are not so cheap, but I hope I find somebody who still have some "in stock".
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Mihai,

May I make a suggestion?

First, choose what society you are part of and what position you'd occupy in society

With a little research, this knowledge can allow your gear to come into sharp focus much easier and save you money in the long run.

Let me explain: In my case I lead a group of Living Historians that chose lowland Scotland in Sept 1388 as our focus.

At first I was a pike sergeant/ tenant farmer but then we as a group realized that we needed a "leader" that the tenants would have been in service to at war to be a more accurate presentation to the general public. That person would have been the noble that was in charge of our lands. In our case, I was able to choose a lesser knight as my position, a position that would interface with his tenant farmers on a daily basis and not be a level of society that would bankrupt me to recreate as they themselves struggled in period to maintain their status.

As a Scottish Lesser Knight, that position allowed me to have good armour that could be years out of date (unlike the Kings, Princes, and top Nobles) that would have been imported from the German or Italian city states and worn in a English fashion (Sleeveless surcoat vs sleeved jupon). This knowledge allowed me to look at German, Scottish and English Knight effigys from 1350-1380 for ideas. Once with a concept in mind, I took a few years to gather my kit, and since then, I've been replacing the passable parts with better gear as I can afford too.

Stop and think, Who am I? What do I do? What to I do at war? How do I make a living when not at war? What is the soft and hard kit used by my station at war, at peace? These questions will save you time, money, and costly mistakes in the long run.

Now, quick answer time: Go with riveted maille, butted weights a lot more and breaks apart when hit by solid blows. Spring steel kicks butt, lighter, won't dent, must be fitted to you as once tempered the shape doesn't change. I've been changing out my mild steel for spring as I can (with better quality armour).

This



Became this



and now is this... over the last 4 years



I should have the surcoat on, but I was showing off the new HE spring steel breastplate. Cool

Soft kit...

Arming coat done in a CBD style





Foul weather gear



Traveling kit



Nice kit (plus armour chest and shield)



I hope this helps,

Yours,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think there has been some very good info given to you. What Dave said it very important. Start with what your group requires and what you can do. It would be hard to portray an earl, duke or king without a huge amount of items which would require even more money. Daves starting down and working up is a very good example of how to do it. Start where your ability and financially you are capable and move up from there. Gives you good time to work up from there.

As far as mail goes do not expect your riveted mail to never need repairs if you let people hit you with blunts and such but the difference is huge. Some of the nicer riveted stuff might be even better.

This is something that is an odd reenactorism so I will give you my take. Medieval armour, heat treated or not had about the same thickness. Some groups now have slightly heavier requirements but do not run the other way though. I think people using ultra light weight armour just because it is heat treated is just as bad. Some of the ultra light armours I have seen weight much less than any similar medieval harnesses. It is fine for the game and all but something that is just as period correct as using carbon fiber or fiber glass armour. Not pointing at any one perons, people or groups just wanting to pull this up again.

Do not forget to put pictures up when you are done! We'd love to see your finished kit.

RPM
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jul, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:


This is something that is an odd reenactorism so I will give you my take. Medieval armour, heat treated or not had about the same thickness. Some groups now have slightly heavier requirements but do not run the other way though. I think people using ultra light weight armour just because it is heat treated is just as bad. Some of the ultra light armours I have seen weight much less than any similar medieval harnesses. It is fine for the game and all but something that is just as period correct as using carbon fiber or fiber glass armour. Not pointing at any one perons, people or groups just wanting to pull this up again.

RPM


Well this is a good point to bear in your mind. As for the case of my arm harness, it is around the same weight as the original piece. So, everything out of durable mild steel would be somewhat heavier. In some cases you will need to use spring, or hardened steel just to be able to come close to the real thing.
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