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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis A. wrote:
or is it historically accurate?


No, that sword is not historically accurate. It's very wrong.

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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 8:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:


No, that sword is not historically accurate. It's very wrong.


That was my instinct when looking at it as well, it just doesn't look right without the langets
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Windlass "Munich" sword is a good and inexpensive match for that harness.

http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=501144

It isn't Scottish, but it's a type that was common among continental horsemen of the period (and you're not going to get a distinctively Scottish sword appropriate for the harness anyway). Get that sword and an historic Scottish flag to display behind the harness to provide the Scottish context. Happy

-Sean

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https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
The Windlass "Munich" sword is a good and inexpensive match for that harness.


I agree!

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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
The Windlass "Munich" sword is a good and inexpensive match for that harness.

http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=501144

It isn't Scottish, but it's a type that was common among continental horsemen of the period (and you're not going to get a distinctively Scottish sword appropriate for the harness anyway). Get that sword and an historic Scottish flag to display behind the harness to provide the Scottish context. Happy


Hmm, well that is somewhat similar to my idea of taking the basket guard off the Windlass "Scottish Cutlass" (I like the look of that hilt better) and putting it on a straight double-edged blade; though as this style of sword was not in use prior to 1500, I'm still not sure if that would be a style of sword contemporary with the armor, although it would be quite similar to the SW11 type baskethilt, and to other early baskethilts that I have seen.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis A. wrote:
Hmm, well that is somewhat similar to my idea of taking the basket guard off the Windlass "Scottish Cutlass" (I like the look of that hilt better) and putting it on a straight double-edged blade; though as this style of sword was not in use prior to 1500, I'm still not sure if that would be a style of sword contemporary with the armor, although it would be quite similar to the SW11 type baskethilt, and to other early baskethilts that I have seen.


Being a big fan of those early basket-hilts (like the SW11), I must point out that the Windlass basket is nothing at all like anything historical. It's stamped out of sheet metal and is completely non-historical in every way. The only thing recognizable is the general form of the cutouts that would resemble the general form of the bars on the real deal. The fact that they further muddled it by adding it to a "cutlass" blade is horrendous.

The historical versions of those swords would not be used before 1500.

Again, if historical authenticity is not important, this is of no significance, but your statements keep leaning towards historical precedent so I'm assuming you want some info regarding such things.

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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:

Being a big fan of those early basket-hilts (like the SW11), I must point out that the Windlass basket is nothing at all like anything historical. It's stamped out of sheet metal and is completely non-historical in every way. The only thing recognizable is the general form of the cutouts that would resemble the general form of the bars on the real deal. The fact that they further muddled it by adding it to a "cutlass" blade is horrendous.

The historical versions of those swords would not be used before 1500.

Again, if historical authenticity is not important, this is of no significance, but your statements keep leaning towards historical precedent so I'm assuming you want some info regarding such things.


I agree with you that putting that hilt on a cutlass blade is an atrocity, but the hilt itself is not that bad looking to my eye (I doubt it is sheet metal). In fact the hilt on the Windlass "Scottish cutlass" is a dead ringer for one belonging to an antique Scottish boardsword that appears as figure #15 in Stephen Wood's book "The Scottish Soldier" - I wish that I had a way of scanning it so I could post a pic to show how nearly identical they are, but perhaps someone else may be able to.
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the main conceptual problem with using a distinctively Scottish sword with full harness is that a man who could afford a continental harness would most likely be using a continental weapon as well. Another thing to consider is that the basket evolved to protect the un-armoured hand. It would not only be redundant to use it with plate guantlets, but might even be impossible. Baskets were not the massive things we see on many modern reproductions--they often fit close to the hand. That's certainly one reason why you'll see depictions of horsemen in this period carrying either plain, old-fashioned arming swords or swords with relatively simple hilt additions like a knucklebow or siderings (or a relatively open hilt like the "Munich" and other field swords).

To make your harness work (historically) with a basket hilt sword of any kind you'd want to look at the headmen of the Anglo-Scots borderers, ca. 1580, who were wealthy enough to afford plate but smart enough not to use full harness in their military context. Keep the breast but remove fauld and tassets and arms. Trade the helmet for a burgonet if possible, but if not, keep this helmet and remove the visor. Then get as simple an open a basket as you can find on a long narrow SE or DE blade (try Darwood Armory). That's a more credible Scottish sword/armour kit in theory, although the devil is always in the details.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Mon 19 Jul, 2010 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check out the Scottish borderer body defense pages starting here:

http://www.theborderers.info/bodydefences1.html

And a couple of pages on the kinds of swords that would have been used with that armour:

http://www.theborderers.info/swords.html

If you like those late 16th c. basket styles and want both armour and a credible Scottish impression, this is the kind of kit you need:



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-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Bryce Felperin




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis A. wrote:
Lin Robinson wrote:
There is an interesting piece on armor in 17th c. Scottish portraits which is found in Scottish Weapons and Fortifications by David Caldwell. The essence of the piece, as I read it, was that many of the armed portraits, i.e. those in which the subject is wearing armor, were not taken directly from life. That is to say that the artist painted the head of the subject and added an armor clad body to it. Apparently during that era the ownership of armor was more of a prestige thing than a practical matter. If this idea is correct, then any period portrait clad in armor should be taken with a grain of salt.


You know, I have read something similar regarding portraits of Highland gentlemen painted wearing the kilt. There is a famous portrait of Sir William Gordon of Fyvie painted by Pompeo Batoni in 1766 which may have been done in this manner - the body painted first with only the face painted from a live sitting. Sort of like the "face in the hole" pictures taken at carnivals.



The sword in this portrait is straight and being bent, rather than curved at the end. Note the shadow in the picture.
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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I think the main conceptual problem with using a distinctively Scottish sword with full harness is that a man who could afford a continental harness would most likely be using a continental weapon as well. Another thing to consider is that the basket evolved to protect the un-armoured hand. It would not only be redundant to use it with plate guantlets, but might even be impossible. Baskets were not the massive things we see on many modern reproductions--they often fit close to the hand. That's certainly one reason why you'll see depictions of horsemen in this period carrying either plain, old-fashioned arming swords or swords with relatively simple hilt additions like a knucklebow or siderings (or a relatively open hilt like the "Munich" and other field swords).

To make your harness work (historically) with a basket hilt sword of any kind you'd want to look at the headmen of the Anglo-Scots borderers, ca. 1580, who were wealthy enough to afford plate but smart enough not to use full harness in their military context. Keep the breast but remove fauld and tassets and arms. Trade the helmet for a burgonet if possible, but if not, keep this helmet and remove the visor. Then get as simple an open a basket as you can find on a long narrow SE or DE blade (try Darwood Armory). That's a more credible Scottish sword/armour kit in theory, although the devil is always in the details.


Okay, that brings me back to ground one. I do have a "Scottish" burgonet (sold as such and like the ones in your illustrations of the Border Reivers), however I'm not really interested in altering the configuration of the suit of armor. I agree with you that the baskethilt make little sense with gauntlets, and they may be a bit late period-wise as well, as the early ones can only be dated back to circa 1540. I may still get the Scottish cutlass to use the hilt on a broadsword blade because I like the basketguard; but for the harness I think I will have to go with something more straightforward and my taste in swords really narrows down the choice between a claymore or a two-handed Lowland sword - the latter would probably be the best choice between the two, and I have had my eye on the Hanwei Lowland two-hander for quite awhile now. The only concern I have about it is its massive size and how it would be held in relation to the armor.

There is a less massive sword I have seen that would be a better size for displaying with the harness, however I am doubtful of its authenticity and I suspect it may well be something that someone just made up. Here it is:



http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ttle+Sword

What do you guys think? modern fantasy or historical replica?
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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis A. wrote:

What do you guys think? modern fantasy or historical replica?


Tartan tat for those gullible enough to leap on anything with the word "scottish" in its name.

it could only get worse with a free pot of blue facepaint and a sticker of mel gibson on the box...

I could dig more authentic stuff out of the back of my garden shed.
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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 5:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JG Elmslie wrote:
Lewis A. wrote:

What do you guys think? modern fantasy or historical replica?


Tartan tat for those gullible enough to leap on anything with the word "scottish" in its name.

it could only get worse with a free pot of blue facepaint and a sticker of mel gibson on the box...

I could dig more authentic stuff out of the back of my garden shed.


Thanks for confirming what I suspected. It was the thistle shaped quillons that threw up a red flag for me.

Perhaps I should just give up and get the cheapest, cheesiest claymore to slap up against the harness:



$39.00 at: http://www.edgeimport.com/store.cfm?event=ite...id%3D73326
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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis A. wrote:

Perhaps I should just give up and get the cheapest, cheesiest claymore to slap up against the harness:



ironically, its more accurate than many of the ones three times the price.

dont swing it around. I'll bet your life (possibly literally if you try) its a welded rat-tail screwthread tang, not a proper one, and I'd be loath to improve it by drilling out the quatrefoils on the cross ends, on grounds the metal is probably some sort of monstrous resin... shite.

(sorry. I cant think of a more polite term for that sort of metal.)

but beyond that... well, its cheap, it looks sort of right, anything you get in the future will be an improvement...

cant complain really
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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JG Elmslie wrote:
Lewis A. wrote:

Perhaps I should just give up and get the cheapest, cheesiest claymore to slap up against the harness:



ironically, its more accurate than many of the ones three times the price.

dont swing it around. I'll bet your life (possibly literally if you try) its a welded rat-tail screwthread tang, not a proper one, and I'd be loath to improve it by drilling out the quatrefoils on the cross ends, on grounds the metal is probably some sort of monstrous resin... shite.

(sorry. I cant think of a more polite term for that sort of metal.)

but beyond that... well, its cheap, it looks sort of right, anything you get in the future will be an improvement...

cant complain really


Except for the bas-relief designs covering every possible millimeter of the guard and pommel, the actual shape and proportions are surprisingly good as you pointed out. I think the guard and pommel are cast of some sort of base pot-metal alloy like zinc - which is crap. The stainless steel blade is crap too. As a usable sword, it's complete crap that looks like fancy crap. It is an Asian knockoff of one made by Marto of Spain. I suppose for the price, it would be fine for a decorative piece - which is all I use any of my swords for anyway, apart for the possibility of someday dispatching an intruder; but in that event, I definately wouldn't be reaching for that one.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis A. wrote:
Except for the bas-relief designs covering every possible millimeter of the guard and pommel, the actual shape and proportions are surprisingly good as you pointed out.


If I squint and ignore the crazy decorations on it, the big ball pommel, round-sectioned grip, bad proportions and volumes of the shapes, ferrules, blade shape, and other details still make it quite bad to my eye--historically speaking. For me all these things are actually quite a bit worse than the decorative elements.

The Windlass basket-hilt above does indeed appear stamped out of sheet-metal. There is no dimensionality to the pieces of the hilt because it's stamped out of a consistently-thick sheet of metal. I've had the hilt. It's not good. This does not give the appearance of authentic examples.

Sean's suggestion of the Windlass Munich sword is a good match to the harness in question both in terms of the type of weapon and also the time period it sort of resembles.

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lewis A. wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
The Windlass "Munich" sword is a good and inexpensive match for that harness.

http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=501144

It isn't Scottish, but it's a type that was common among continental horsemen of the period (and you're not going to get a distinctively Scottish sword appropriate for the harness anyway). Get that sword and an historic Scottish flag to display behind the harness to provide the Scottish context. Happy


Hmm, well that is somewhat similar to my idea of taking the basket guard off the Windlass "Scottish Cutlass" (I like the look of that hilt better) and putting it on a straight double-edged blade; though as this style of sword was not in use prior to 1500, I'm still not sure if that would be a style of sword contemporary with the armor, although it would be quite similar to the SW11 type baskethilt, and to other early baskethilts that I have seen.


Louis,

As someone who knows pretty much next to nothing on basket-hilt swords [I am referring to myself here], I suggest you look at the myArmoury album of antique British basket-hilts: http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=19

A few things stand out to me. If you look closely at some of the metal work near the bottom of the blade of the sword, it looks as though Windlass is employing the really cheap metal seen on the crudgy suits of armour that you can sometimes buy as decorations (for the outdoors) from hardware stores. I don't know if it's sheet metal, because metalwork isn't something I know about, but it looks wrong. Second, notice that on historical examples, a lot of basket-hilts tend to have longish, vertical gaps between the metal bars, whereas on the one you've shown from Windlass, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Further, notice that when there are smaller gaps between the bars in antique examples, they tend to conform to a specific, discernable pattern. On the Windlass sword, they seem to appear pretty much haphazardly.

From a recently informed but otherwise "lay" persective, the Windlass sword looks wrong.

On a different note, I have seen a ball pommel on an antique "claymore", so that particular feature is not inaccurate on the $39 model, although most of the rest is.
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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:


Louis,

As someone who knows pretty much next to nothing on basket-hilt swords [I am referring to myself here], I suggest you look at the myArmoury album of antique British basket-hilts: http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=19

A few things stand out to me. If you look closely at some of the metal work near the bottom of the blade of the sword, it looks as though Windlass is employing the really cheap metal seen on the crudgy suits of armour that you can sometimes buy as decorations (for the outdoors) from hardware stores. I don't know if it's sheet metal, because metalwork isn't something I know about, but it looks wrong. Second, notice that on historical examples, a lot of basket-hilts tend to have longish, vertical gaps between the metal bars, whereas on the one you've shown from Windlass, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Further, notice that when there are smaller gaps between the bars in antique examples, they tend to conform to a specific, discernable pattern. On the Windlass sword, they seem to appear pretty much haphazardly.

From a recently informed but otherwise "lay" persective, the Windlass sword looks wrong.

On a different note, I have seen a ball pommel on an antique "claymore", so that particular feature is not inaccurate on the $39 model, although most of the rest is.


Hi Craig,

Although I haven't seen the Windlass "Scottish Cutlass" in person, I believe that the basket guard on it is made with methods and materials similar to one of my older Hanwei baskethilted backswords, the one shown in the photos below:





The basket of this particular sword is made of smooth flat metal with the sections between the bars and those forming the designs being cut out. The metal is quite tough and sturdy and does not bend or even flex under any normal sort of stress or pressure. Paul Chen/Hanwei seems to have based this sword on historical examples of Scottish baskethilts of this type, such as the one shown below:



I believe that the Windlass "Scottish Cutlass" is probably made in the same manner from similar type of metal. As I said earlier the shape and configuration of the cutouts closely match a historical baskethilt shown in Stephen Wood's book, "The Scottish Soldier" (fig. 15), shown below:


Windlass "Scottish Cutlass" (above). Early Scottish baskethilt broadsword (below):
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm aware of your references and I stand by my statement. Having had the sword in my own hands and multiple other basket-hilts I can tell you, it's nothing like a historical sword. The proportions are wrong. The materials are wrong. The overall shape is wrong. The fact that it's stamped out of something flat and then bent into place is wrong. It's a mess.
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Lewis A.




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
I'm aware of your references and I stand by my statement. Having had the sword in my own hands and multiple other basket-hilts I can tell you, it's nothing like a historical sword.


That is no doubt quite true, although not everyone who enjoys edged weapons can afford to collect actual antique swords, or even modern recreations of them that have been forged by master swordsmiths. I imagine this is why there is such a large market for the cheaper reproduction swords such as those made by Windlass, Deepeeka, Hanwei and other Indian or Asian manufacturers who employ somewhat less skilled craftsmen to produce replica swords that are more affordable to those who are not endowed with more substantial means.
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