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Nathan F
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 Posted: Wed 11 Aug, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: |
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so were they still in essence just a heater shield?
for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Wed 11 Aug, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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As the century goes on less and less heaters and more mini-pavaises and round shields. You do see some heaters at times, some that look pretty crazy.
RPM
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Nathan F
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| Posted: Wed 11 Aug, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: |
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yeah lots of the shields im seeing turn up as being more decorative than practical looking so it makes it hard to differentiate between what was parade armour and what is a battle field shield.
for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Peteris R.
Location: Latvia Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2012 4:16 am Post subject: |
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So shields were still used by men-at-arms at Agincourt? What about the war of the roses - were shields still used then? If yes, by whom and for what purposes?
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2012 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Peteris,
The Agincourt examples are fairly common in at least many of the French sources and in logistical records on both sides. Well the Fastoff account takes place during the earlier War of the Roses so I can say yes to that. In artwork the gents using them use them seemingly for melee and Monstrelet states they were in demand for countering archers. I assume the same group used them through the 15th, men at arms and others not using two handed weapons. My feeling is once you use a two handed weapon you cannot be actively using a shield (perhaps slung over the shoulder though) which is where the concept of a decline in use derives from.
Nathan,
You also need be careful about the artists own style. We see all sorts of stylized things besides shields in artwork of the era.
RPM
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William P
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | Peteris,
The Agincourt examples are fairly common in at least many of the French sources and in logistical records on both sides. Well the Fastoff account takes place during the earlier War of the Roses so I can say yes to that. In artwork the gents using them use them seemingly for melee and Monstrelet states they were in demand for countering archers. I assume the same group used them through the 15th, men at arms and others not using two handed weapons. My feeling is once you use a two handed weapon you cannot be actively using a shield (perhaps slung over the shoulder though) which is where the concept of a decline in use derives from.
Nathan,
You also need be careful about the artists own style. We see all sorts of stylized things besides shields in artwork of the era.
RPM |
how common would you say that the use of shields would have been based on what you know? 15% 30% of men maybe??
in particular i m thinking of the dismounted men at arms/ dismounted knights?
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Iagoba Ferreira
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 2:05 am Post subject: |
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In Castilla they are clearly mentioned in several inventories.
Three kind of pavises:
-"De barrera": probably the biggest ones, that can stand on the ground by themselves
-The normal ones, sometimes used by crossbowmen or "spearmen". They may be oval or square, sometimes resembling the Roman classical "scutum".
-Small pavises (pavesinas, medios paveses), used with swords, spears or darts.
Tarjas for heavy cavalry and jousters, and adargas for light ("a la jineta") cavalry, sometimes also infantry.
More kinds of shields are listed in inventories, but at this moment we cannot know the shape of them.They are named after the places where they are made (Oviedo, Pontevedra).
Last edited by Iagoba Ferreira on Fri 06 Jul, 2012 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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William P
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Iagoba Ferreira wrote: | In Castilla they are clearly mentioned in several inventories.
Three kind of pavises:
-"De barrera": probably the biggest ones, that can stand on the ground by themselves
-The normal ones, sometimes used by crossbowmen or "spearmen". They may be oval or square, sometimes resembilng the Roman classical "scutum".
-Small pavises (pavesinas, medios paveses), used with swords, spears or darts.
Tarjas for heavy cavalry and jousters, and adargas for light ("a la jineta") cavalry, sometimes also infantry.
More kinds of shields are listed in inventories, but at this moment we cannot know the shape of them.They are named after the places where they are made (Oviedo, Pontevedra). |
the spanish definately have much more of a tradition of shield use than the rest of latin europe., which helps explain why, when the renaissance came around, they used rodeleros so much. paicularly in he americas.
which makes sense considering their tradition of jinetes and such.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 5:27 am Post subject: |
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William,
Maybe. I am incresingly sceptic of the general attitude of major shield decline in most of Europe. They show up fairly often in many mediums throughout the 15th. That said Spain sure had its own style but hard to compare as far as shields go just how different.
RPM
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Iagoba Ferreira
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| Posted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the spanish definately have much more of a tradition of shield use than the rest of latin europe |
The most usual confrontations (normally between Castillians) were skirmishes and ambushes, or "sieges" of towers and fortified houses. Here the crossbow was the most usual weapon, regardless of the side. Even in the cavalry the most common weapon was the dart, another missile weapon...shields (specially pavises) are a good choice to protect yourself in this kind of fighting. The same happened in naval warfare, so the pavises were among the basic equipment in any ship fitted for war.
I'd like to add that to "play" the "juego de caņas" between jinetes an adarga shield is needed to block the "caņas"(javelins), and this was played still in the XVIIth century...
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This is a standard topic