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Randall Moffett
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 Posted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 4:17 am Post subject: |
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"A steel cuirass weighs less than a padded jack."
I am not sure you can prove that Dan. The only largely padded jacks from period are at best missing parts but still weight far less than most of the cuirasses I know of. The Lubeck Jacks both are lighter than the average cuirass of the time.
To me the reason they likely made the move is that many likely had some type of textile armour as part of their more complete armour or as their sole armour when they arrived and needed replacements as they were there.
I agree with Dan that it likely was not simply to drop weight though.
RPM
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Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 7:24 am Post subject: |
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It could have been to drop weight. If the weapons of the natives can't pierce padding, then why wear more protection? Not saying that this was done (the sources don't seem to say that it was), but I don't see why you would also wear additional protection if the primary defense was satisfactory.
E Pluribus Unum
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José-Manuel Benito
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| Posted: Wed 27 Mar, 2013 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Bump up, because the Easter has gave me some free time.
| Dan Howard wrote: | Another one: I've been reading a translation of El Cid and came across the following sentences.
"...he wiped the blood away with the sleeve of his mail"
"...and delivered such blows that their helmets were cut away and the sleeves of the mail"
"...the sleeves of his mail were clotted with blood up to the elbow"
I was wondering what the original Spanish for "mail sleeves" was in this book and whether there is a difference between modern Spanish and medieval Spanish. |
The difference between the old Castilian and the current Spanish is very large, especially considering the geographic dialectal variants. In the book, in the original old Castilian, never is used the word 'sleeves', but is used simply arm (braço).
loriga (noun, still in use) = hauberk, mail
astil (noun, still un use) = shaft of a polearm
cobdo (noun, not in use,archaic form from codo) = elbow
braço (noun, not in use, archaic form from brazo) = arm
cabeças (noun, not in use, archaic form from cabeza) = head
ayuso (adverb, not in use) = down
a part (adverb, not in use, archaic form from aparte) = away
destellando (verb, not in use) = dripping
hobo (verb, not in use, archaic form from hubo, that is the preterite of haber) = was
untar (verb, still in use, to spread) = in this case, to get dirty
veriedes (verb, not in use, archaic form from veríais, ver) = to see
caden (verb, not in use, archaic form from caen, caer) = to fall
Sentence by sentence
"...he wiped the blood away with the sleeve of his mail"
It is a pattern that is repeated several times in El Cantar of Mío Cid with some variations, it apperas in the first chapter (El Destierro/The Exile): «Por la loriga ayuso la sangre destellado» and in the other chapters (La Afrenta de Corpes/The Affront of Corpes) «Por el cobdo ayuso la sangre destellando» (this verse appears four times in the Cantar).
Both adapted to the current Spanish (from Spain, perhaps in America could be different):
«Por la loriga ayuso la sangre destellando» that means: The blood dripping his hauberk down.
«Por el codo ayuso la sangre destellando» that means: The blood dripping from the elbow down.
So I would say that 'wiped' it is not a very accurate translation. However I don't know all meanings of 'wiped'.
The other verse: "...the sleeves of his mail were clotted with blood up to the elbow" is the same as previously mentioned, and in which the blood dripping to the elbow (cobdo). There are other similar verses, with slight variations: "…blood ran down the shaft of the spear and stained her hands", in old Castilian is «Corrió la sangre por el astil ayuso, las manos se hobo de untar»
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"...and delivered such blows that their helmets were cut away and the sleeves of the mail"
These two verses tell of the battle between El Cid and Bucar, king of Morocco, on the beaches of Valencia,
«Tanto braço con loriga veriedes caer a part», that means: You would see many arms with his mail falling down.
«Tantas cabeças con yelmos que por el campo caden», that means: (You would see) many heads with her helmets falling in the battlefield.
I think, in this case, it is correct to say that the arms were amputees (despite their hauberks) and the heads were severed (even wearing helmets), but not in the original text, because it is implicit and that is understood.
Regards
José-Manuel
Last edited by José-Manuel Benito on Thu 28 Mar, 2013 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 27 Mar, 2013 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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So my next question is what would have been used at the time to describe "mail sleeves"? Would it be a variant of loriga braço? It seems evident that loriga derives from lorica, which is a generic term for armour. Do comtemporary texts use a variant of malla to specifically refer to mail armour?
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José-Manuel Benito
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| Posted: Thu 28 Mar, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Do comtemporary texts use a variant of malla to specifically refer to mail armour? |
In Spanish we use too «cota de malla» (chainmail), «camisa de malla» (mail shirt), «jubón de malla» (mail jacket), «arnés» (harness)…
The Cantar de Mío Cid was written in the thirteenth century, although the story is happened earlier. I mean that language is of thirteenth century, not of eleventh one.
We can see Las Siete Partidas (Seven Part Code), a Castilian statutory code first compiled during the reign of Alfonso X of Castile (1252–1284). They define armas as that which serves to safety: «Armas para amparança» (armour for protection). So, initially, in Old Castilian, the word arma is referred both armor and weapon, and armarse means to wear armor. According to king Alfonso X, besides the sword, spear, etc, weapons are also: «lorigas e lorigones, pespuntes, coraças, escudos e yelmos para sofrir colpes de piedra e para ferir amanteniente» (hauberks and haubergeons, pourpoints, breastplates, shields and helmets to withstand stones and to strike with force). So it should not be strange to us that Bernal Diaz del Castillo uses the word armas when he talks about armor.
| Dan Howard wrote: | | So my next question is what would have been used at the time to describe "mail sleeves"? Would it be a variant of loriga braço? It seems evident that loriga derives from lorica, which is a generic term for armour. |
On the Spanish word loriga, you are right because comes from the latin lorica; also comes from the Latin brachium, the Spanish word brazo/braço. Speaking broadly, the word brazo refers to the upper extremity, the whole arm; but in a very strict sense brazo is only the part that goes from shoulder to elbow, the upper arm, excluding forearm. In Las Siete Partidas we can find this 13th century primary source:
«E lorigón es dicho a aquél que llega la manga hasta el codo e no pasa más adelante hasta la mano; e camisote es el que llega la manga hasta la mano; e guardabrazo es el que tiene mangas».
That means: And it is called lorigón the mail that has a sleeve that reaches to the elbow and don't goes from there (Haubergeon?) And a camisote is a mail shirt which has sleeves that reach to the hands, and a guardabrazo is a "loriga complida" or complete chainmail with long sleeves. I want to clarify that both lorigón like camisote has short skirt, to mid-thigh, while the loriga complida has a knee-length skirt (complida means complete).
The word guardabrazo remained in use for centuries and came used to designate a portion of the armor of plates, in English is called rerebrace.
Regards
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 28 Mar, 2013 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you. So it seems that they only used the general word for armour (loriga) and not for mail specifically (malla). Does a variant of malla appear in medieval Spanish texts?
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José-Manuel Benito
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| Posted: Fri 29 Mar, 2013 7:09 am Post subject: |
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The term malla could be explained as tejido de sortijas de hierro (woven of iron rings) or malla de hierro (mesh of iron rings).
As far as I know, in Castilian it is not used the word malla until the fourteenth century; before then the term more used is loriga, which appears in Etymologiae of Isidore of Seville (seventh century, Visigothic period, written in Latin). There are many words for different types of mail, that I has mentioned in the previous posts. Almost never are clear, but I guess this happens also in English: loriga, lorigón, camisote, coraça, brunía…; also are adaptations to Castilian language for hauberk as alsbergo and hauberto.
I believe that from the fourteenth century it begins to use the words malla and cota, because they are taken from the French terms as cotte and maille. Since then, it is speaking about jubón de malla and cota de malla, with some variations.
You can see many of these terms in a book called Glosario de Voces de Armería (Glossary of Armory Voices), written by the Baron of Leguina in 1912: http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/006130189
Regards
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