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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | Jeff A. Arbogast wrote: | | If I was as rich as, say, Paris Hilton, I could buy anything I wanted ANY TIME I wanted it, like she does. That sounds great at first, and it would be for those of us who don't live that lifestyle. But the flip side of that is that when things come too easily, nothing holds any value for you. Lots of super rich people don't seem all that happy a lot of the time. Maybe that's part of it? I'm not saying I wouldn't mind trying it myself, but to me at least, the thrill of finally getting something you suffered all kinds of pains to get is SOOOO much more satisfying than just being able to go BUY it like you would a pair of sneakers. |
There is great wisdom in this. |
Dunno... "Money can't buy happiness" has always born a distinct scent of "The Fox and the Grapes", to me.  |
Money can't buy happiness but poverty is generally fairly miserable.    
Only each of us can decide for themselves if the price is worth it and if they can manage it without creating some hardships by not paying the rent or something: I would certainly wish for the prices to be lower, I hope that Albion survives as they make great swords and think where the market in quality swords would be if Albion had never existed ? The rising quality of the lower end stuff is in great deal due to Albion creating a demand for historically correct and correct handling swords.
Bottom line I wish them well and hope they survive longterm and I hope to be able to afford the yearly or by-yearly Albion I usually buy.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michael Ahrens
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| Posted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: | If you do this, your treasure that sword more than any other as you worked for it.
Cheers,
David |
David
Could not agree more. Last year I hit a bad patch. Not quite recovered yet, but getting there. I now have the new Moat Sale blade project in the works. I am sending Christian Fletcher a little each month, as I told him better with him then with me. But now Albion goes and releases sketches of The Il Principe. I hate being unable to just call Albion and say send it.
My have to get some other things sold to make that one happen. However if it is something you want there is always a way.
Mike
Mike Ahrens
http://www.selohaar.org/
Staten Island German Martial Arts (S.I.G.M.A.)
http://www.sigmanewyork.webs.com/
Member of the 1st Universal Church of St. John Cantius Garand, Reformed (Gas Port)
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Thom R.
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| Posted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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I have been watching this thread develop all weekend and there have been many voices and much good discussion. However, because my particular viewpoint has not been expressed I now feel compelled to throw in my $0.02.
Howy, thanks much for the heads up and the 5-6 week lead time on the price increase. It is much appreciated and shows Albion's dedication to customer service. Thank you!
However, I have mixed feelings about this kind of announcement.
Raising prices? yes well I agree with Allan Senefelder, I don't know about those offical inflation numbers because the costs of running my business seem to be accelerating rather much quicker than CPI too......... so raising prices does not bother me per se. its Albion business and the owners of Albion have to run their business as best as they can. I would expect that for Albion, labor is a far bigger component of cost than materials although energy is probably a big factor too. I am very happy with every Albion sword I have ever owned. I plan on owning more in the future.
Ah the future, therein lies the rub as the bard would say...........................
I don't think it is good PR to make these kind of general announcements without further specifics. Again, I understand that not every model will see the same % price increase, that the price increase probably will be in some way related to the number of man-hours involved in making the individual swords, but as you can see from the 5 pages of responses so far .......................... these swords are no longer in the realm of lunch money for most people. so these kind of general announcements to your clients with no numbers - well with no numbers to go on I don't know how you expect your clients to make a rational economic decision as to whether to buy before August or wait.
I think your clients deserve better given the economic climate and the price range your products are in. If you know the price increase for each model why not put them up on the website. And if you don't - then in my opinion your announcement is pre-mature. Personally, I would never countenance such an announcement to my clients!
Understand, that for me, this is one of those rare instances where I get to be the consumer/client and get a chance to bitch!  But I think this kind of thing is bad PR and I like you folks at Albion so had to say something. Good luck, TR
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J.E. Sweeney
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| Posted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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i would rather Albion increase price as opposed to sacrificing quality.... dont know what else to say...
- JESW
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Jean-Carle Hudon
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 6:28 am Post subject: |
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I understand the need to raise prices, but the timing is very bad. The north american public is only now beginning to absorb how closing their own factories to buy cheaply made ( I am referring to the price of labor, not the quality of the merchandise)
products is tantamount to shooting oneself in the foot. We have all had to share the pain of paying for auto producers and banks in order to shore up a failing economy, and now the southern gulf states will need help in order to diversify their economies while fishing and oil are under review. I think this will lead the average joe to reconsider every time he is tempted by that Nissan, or other imported goods.
So. Back to swords. We have all seen the quality of Chinese and Indian imports rise over the last few years, and they can throw in an efficient and, in some cases, fairly good looking scabbard as a loss leader. Very attractive to the average buyer looking for something to show off at the local SCA or Renaissance Fair, or cutting gathering . The knowledge that the product comes from China, or India, will start to bother this consumer the same way and at the same rate as the Nissan buyer who is now going back to Ford or GM products. He will then wish to consider the north american alternatives.
That's where a price increase hurts more than it helps. When the consumer feels that he can't accept the price differential, he will continue to buy the less expensive product, and have no difficulty justifying his actions.
Now I also understand the quality argument. I always have, but I don't drive a Mercedes, can't afford it.
Best of luck to Albion and one day I will be a paying customer. JC
Bon coeur et bon bras
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Marko J.
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Interesting reading. It is unusual to see that while many other sword makers are introducing lines of swords that are cheaper and better than what was available a few years ago, Albion decided to go the other way, increasing the price of the swords that are allready on the market for years...
Does this make sence? It depends how one looks at it.
I bought my first Albion this year, the Ritter. It took me more than a year to select the model and buy it, since after this I probably won't buy another sword for a long time. Is it worth it? I think it is. If you want it badly you can have it. My salary is 800 € per month. The cost of one albion. They are expencive, but if you really want it you will manage to save up for one sooner than later. It's just a matter of priorities. I'm not saying I can have all of them, but If I have at least one, I know I have a SWORD. I dont need a whole armoury. And If someone needs a whole armoury and can't afford to have 10 Albions, there is still VA, HT and so on... Those are great swords for the money as well.
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 10:15 am Post subject: |
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The bright side of what might now turn into a genuine worldwide depression: The factors that are driving up expenses for Albion and making it harder or at least less advisable for many of us to buy new Albion swords might also create a more robust market for pre-owned Albion swords. Somebody who bought at $800 several years ago can sell for $1,000 because that sword is now $1,200 new from Albion. Albion gets their price increase, current owners take a profit and prospective owners find bargains. On the other hand, Albion owners wanting or needing to sell might end up taking losses as the economy finally slips into the abyss. Fewer people willing to loose the purse strings for such purchases = falling prices. That's good for those still able to buy, bad for owners who need to sell in order to buy food and pay bills, and terrible for Albion (and everybody else in this niche market). If I can get a Munich for $600 from Desperate Joe, why would I buy new? Or, if a pristine Munich is at $600, maybe I can get a custom XVIIIb from a hobbyist or semi-professional manufacturer for even less.
In the last year I've noticed at least a couple of cases in which a New-In-Box Albion has been offered at a discount or with some other incentive in the Marketplace here. Maybe that's market speculation but I suspect that the extended gap between the opening for pre-orders (or even regular orders) and the delivery of the sword creates some powerful "buyer's remorse," especially if orders went in before a job loss, stagnant salaries, reduced work hours, etc.
There's some scary stuff on the horizon, I think, and increased prices for Albion swords, Bugattis, Leicas, Rolex, etc. is going to seem pretty trivial.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I may gripe about this and all, but I must echo the sentiments expressed by several other posters: I'd much rather see Albion raise their prices than lower their quality, and would absolutely rather have them go out of my price range than out of business. The sheer existence of a company like Albion makes my world a little bit more interesting, and it'd be a real shame to lose that.
| Sean Flynt wrote: | | There's some scary stuff on the horizon, I think, and increased prices for Albion swords, Bugattis, Leicas, Rolex, etc. is going to seem pretty trivial. |
I beg to disagree! They may be trivial, but it's always the little things that actually bother me the most. I've walked several miles on a broken leg without complaining, but if I stub my toe I fall down and curl up in a ball, if you know what I mean? I've been technically homeless on several occasions, and the thing that always stressed me the most was not finding employment and lodging and all that big rationally important stuff, but simply finding secure storage for all my books.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Sean Flynt
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | P. Cha wrote: | | Here's the rub though...Gus blades are quality. As is most custom swords. The argument isn't getting the hanwei over albion, it's getting the chimera line for a good chunk less or paying a bit more going custom (or in the case of some makers, still paying less). That is a hard place to be as a price point. |
I really don't get this comment at all. The Chimera line might produce quality items, but they aren't the same quality items produced by Albion. They aren't trying to be. It's not an issue of "more" quality or "less" quality, but an issue of "completely different" quality.
The Chimera products consist of swords that are of a modern-day design and have very little to do with anything that Albion produces. The products are night and day. The Chimera line is not even attempting to produce products with same intent and so I don't really understand the comparison. There are far, far, far more differences with the product lines than there are similarities.
Further, I know of very few custom makers that produce work at the price-point of an Albion item that is as well researched or that produce a final product that is as similar to an authentic, historical antique. In fact, I can only think of a handful of makers (at any price) that have access to the amount or quality of research as Albion does. The list becomes even smaller when one considers the maker's ability to then produce a sword based on the research that ends up close to the authentic pieces serving as inspiration. That remaining list does not have makers who produce swords at the price-point being discussed.
As I mentioned in this topic, Albion has chosen a unique path in the industry. They are making quality products that are well researched and are by and large more historically-accurate than most any other production swords.
Don't kid yourself: R&D costs a lot of money. This is a large part of the cost of an Albion. And why wouldn't it be? Concept and design is a large part of any product design, be it that of a sword, a Web site, a consumer product, a magazine ad, a house, a car, or anything else.
All design is expensive, but design based on extensive study and research is more costly by a large factor. Pulling a design out of one's head is not an easy task, but adding traveling to museums and collections to gain access to antiques, documenting those antiques, interpreting the findings, studying history and other issues of context, solving issues of production methodology and limitations, and translating all of that into a final product is vastly more difficult. Difficult work produces expensive prices.
As Peter Lyon mentioned above: QUALITY COSTS MONEY.
I'd like to add that the type of quality that Albion produces isn't important to everybody. As I mentioned in my previous post, Albion produces swords aimed at a niche market: those interested in well-researched, well-executed historically-based swords. This is a small consumer base and even smaller once one considers those who can afford to actually purchase the items.
For the record, I'm part of their niche market and, by and large, I cannot really afford the items. Bummer for me. Bummer for a lot of us. |
I'm not so sold on the chimera line being all that different from the NG line. Now the museum line is a whole other beast and I am willing to pay whatever price albion wants for those as they are close as you can get to a specific sword in history as you can get. But the NG aren't that different from a gus blade other then Peter has spent a LOT of time in research. But at the end of the day, a gus blade has the proper profile taper, proper distal taper, proper geometry, proper balance and harmonics and etc etc. And considering the chimera lines are peened with more historically accurate fitting made by Christian Fletcher, I really don't see the huge difference that you do I guess.
As for custom makers...there are still some out there who can do some wonderful, well researched historical smithing at rather reasonable prices. It's just that one's that are known via internet tend to be VERY expensive. But smaller local smiths (if your lucky to be near one) can be quite a good way to go.
I guess I should take back not ever getting another albion with price increase since I will most likely get some of the musuem line when I have more money .
And finally if albion needs to raises prices to stick around,I'm all for it. Even if it's beyond a price that I consider a value. I would like to see them stick around.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | I'm not so sold on the chimera line being all that different from the NG line. |
Sold or not. They are vastly different and both makers will tell you so as well. It's factually correct.
There is nothing in the Chimera line that is close to something seen from history. They are contemporary designs with a nod to historical shapes. However, crosses, grips, blades, and pommels are not mix-and-matched in historical swords, only modern interpretations.
Nothing wrong with that, but let's be honest about what is what here.
| Quote: | | As for custom makers...there are still some out there who can do some wonderful, well researched historical smithing at rather reasonable prices. It's just that one's that are known via internet tend to be VERY expensive. But smaller local smiths (if your lucky to be near one) can be quite a good way to go. |
Who are they?
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Ed S.
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I own one of the new CF/Gus Trim collaboration blades and, while nice for the money, they don't come close to an Albion NG in any regard.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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There is a forge in a historical farm near where I live. It's in Ardenwood farms in Fremont, California.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Addison C. de Lisle
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I'll add a voice to the chorus. While I am not thrilled to hear that Albion is increasing their prices I do understand that it is necessary and I hope that they stay in business. I have owned four Albions (and currently still have two) and I love them all, and will still try to stick to my one sword per year.
www.addisondelisle.com
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Christopher H
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | There is nothing in the Chimera line that is close to something seen from history. They are contemporary designs with a nod to historical shapes. However, crosses, grips, blades, and pommels are not mix-and-matched in historical swords, only modern interpretations. |
Hi Nathan, I'm not too familiar with the history so I'd like to hear what your thoughts on re-hilted swords are, if you wouldn't mind sharing. E.g. Would the whole hilt be remade rather than just replacing damaged parts? Thanks!
Last edited by Christopher H on Mon 28 Jun, 2010 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher H wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | | There is nothing in the Chimera line that is close to something seen from history. They are contemporary designs with a nod to historical shapes. However, crosses, grips, blades, and pommels are not mix-and-matched in historical swords, only modern interpretations. |
Hi Nathan, I'm not too familiar with the history so I'd like to hear what your thoughts on re-hilted swords are, if you wouldn't mind sharing. E.g. Would the whole hilt be remade rather then just replacing damaged parts? Thanks! |
That would be best in a topic of its own. I'd encourage you to make one in the Historical Arms Talk forum and addressed to the whole community.
(I mentioned nothing of re-hiltling swords and that would be a completely different subject than the points I mentioned)
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Who are they? |
From doing a commission with them, I think Ollin can come very, very close if one can get the right details to them, but that probably should not be a huge surprise considering they cut their teeth at Albion.
And lets be honest, sometimes getting the right details can be a beast of an issue unless you're Albion. 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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I have two current orders with Ollin currently. I'm a big fan. I'd bet they could make anything they're able to see, study, handle, etc. They're that good.
But there's the rub. Access. My criteria for my question was stated:
| Quote: | | Further, I know of very few custom makers that produce work at the price-point of an Albion item that is as well researched or that produce a final product that is as similar to an authentic, historical antique. In fact, I can only think of a handful of makers (at any price) that have access to the amount or quality of research as Albion does. The list becomes even smaller when one considers the maker's ability to then produce a sword based on the research that ends up close to the authentic pieces serving as inspiration. That remaining list does not have makers who produce swords at the price-point being discussed. |
Albion, through Peter Johnsson, has a much larger R&D information repository. His experience meticulously documenting (measuring originals with precise instruments, making detailed schematics, interpreting the data according to his experience and knowledge, etc.) of hundreds of originals and visual study of what is likely thousands of other swords is likely to be unmatched.
Peter is sort of an ace in the hole, to speak. Albion benefits from this greatly and with that benefit comes a cost.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jun, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not the Albion fanboy that I once was, and I really do think there are some other people doing so very cool things, but over the years I've managed to handle a very large portion of the Albion product line, and a very wide selection of wares from other vendors, along with about two dozen period pieces. Bottom line is this...
Nobody other than a very select group of custom smiths, NOBODY BUT A VERY SELECT GROUP OF CUSTOM SMITHS, puts the level of research, attention, and detail into their work that Albion does. Albion captures elements and details in their products that you just cannot see in most photographs. They document details that can only come from spending time s-t-u-d-y-i-n-g the original pieces with an educated eye that very few people have developed. As has been previously noted, that is part of what you pay for when you buy the Albion product. How valuable that is to you as an individual will vary, but some of the people here in this discussion are plainly trying to say that they do value it, and will pay for it.
As long as they will, even if I won't, Albion will be just fine.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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