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Jon Wolfe




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Or, maybe, they provide a health insurance policy for their employees they would like to keep, and are factoring the fine for not getting on the government plan, into their financial calculations. Worried
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael,
You don't honestly believe that Albion is raising prices to cater to a market of people that buy things just because they're expensive, do you? Happy

My point is that their price increases (however necessary they may be) are causing people to be unable to buy their products. While Albion may gain a few people who just like expensive things, they are pushing away a larger and likely more appreciative crowd. It's a fact, based on responses in this thread and other people I've talked to offline.

Happy

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PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2010 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The thing people are not considering is that Albion was due for a sale, and this is it!!

But this is no sale you say?

In reality it is...and an effective viral advertising campaign to boot!! Just as people here are lamenting the increase, other people are telling each other the change is coming and they are rushing to get orders into Albion before the increase comes due. If this all holds true to form, we'll begin hearing some of those voices soon. In the end sales are all about bringing future sales forward. In this instance Albion has chosen to do that by warning of an increase instead of running a cut. Not the fist time they've used that strategy successfully.

Great thing is that when they work through their backlog in six months or so, and there will be a glut of new orders that come in, they can run a sale at today's current prices and fill their queue again. Cool Cool

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:

People who buy a Rolex or an Omega don't always understand what makes them better than a Seiko or a Citizen, they just know that they are, and they are right. If you hold an Albion next to a Hanwei or a Windlass or a Del Tin, you know it's a superior product, even if you don't understand why.

Before the first time I held an Albion, I was a huge fan of Angus Trim swords. I had been subjected to all of Albion's marketing hype and I knew what, in theory, made them better swords. I had also been subjected to the anti-Albion hype (weak blades, poor performance,etc., which was all utter BS spread by its detractors, a fact I can confidently attest to since I use my Albions extensively) and was a bit antogonistic towards them for daring to charge such high prices for such pretty things I didn't think I could afford.

Then I held some of them at the 2006 blade show.

I was floored. Asbolutely stunned. I bought two right away, to hell with affordability, and couldn't stop myself from accumulating more. You just *know* when you hold one or see it up close that it's something special. I felt like these things had just been carried through a time portal. It was an incredible experience, one I wish I could repeat.


I love albion swords, And if money was no object, I would get them over any production swords...but realistically, gus blades are no slouches either. And like I said I´m willing to pay for the nice extra touches that albion has...but there is a line where I have to ask if those little extras are worth it. And the answer is different for everyone. Some people see the new VA and hanwei and can´t fathom spending 3 times or more as much on a sword that honestly isn´t going to preform 3 times as well. So it´s all a matter of what one considers value. Don´t get me wrong, I love my one albion in my collection(and well worth the price I paid for it 2 years ago)...but at 10% more then current price, I can no longer justify the cost over the chimera line or going custom.
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2010 2:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't want to completely rehash what so many others have said here already, I just want to add a few thoughts.

A friend once told me "The quality will be remembered long after the price is forgotten", and for the people who will sacrifice elsewhere to buy quality (in any field) I have always found that to be true.

I too use the car analogy as it something most people can grasp easily - if you want a BMW but have a Lada budget, why even walk into a BMW showroom? You only set yourself up for disappointment. I myself drive a cheap 'n chearful Daihatsu Sirion to save money for other things like the mortgage (I used to have a Ford Fairmont landwhale, but decided it was getting too expensive for what it offered) - that is just one of those personal choices we all have to make. I would love to own a car like a Ferrari, but I would rather have a house to live in.

Looking at the things like steel costs when wondering about final-cost increases is an almost pointless exercise, as in Western countries raw materials are the least of the costs; the real costs are people, new plant and (increasingly) the other overheads that go with highly regulated, safety-concious societies - I know from my own experiences working for a high-end creative/industrial business (Weta Workshop) that meeting the new OSH requirements that come out continuously is becoming ruinously expensive, as it sometimes means replacing major pieces of plant rather than just adding to them. These are things that you cannot see when you hold your new sword, whether it be an Albion or any other sword produced in the US or Europe, but makers are painfully aware of them.

Having seen some Chinese manufacturing in person recently (and this probably applies to other countries like India), I can say that China does not have this overhead to anywhere near the same level, though the Chinese government is trying to catch up too. There, people are cheap (for example, I realised that the Chinese staff at the hotels I stayed at, would probably never be able to afford to actually stay or eat there), and it is plant that is expensive; the Chinese solution is to throw more people at the problem, and train them in very specific parts of the process as many have almost no industrial skills at the start (some have never even used power tools). So China will for a long time to come, be able to make cheaper goods than the US or Europe; but the pressure to produce in volume, and the cultural background that does not understand what makes the best European-style swords work, means that these other countries may never be able to make swords that really compete with the likes of Albion.

So you come back to my original point of, do you want cheap or do want quality? Very rarely do the two coincide.

Still hammering away


Last edited by Peter Lyon on Sun 27 Jun, 2010 2:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Lyon wrote:

So you come back to my original point of, do you want cheap or do want quality? Very rarely do the two coincide.


Here's the rub though...Gus blades are quality. As is most custom swords. The argument isn't getting the hanwei over albion, it's getting the chimera line for a good chunk less or paying a bit more going custom (or in the case of some makers, still paying less). That is a hard place to be as a price point.
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
The thing people are not considering is that Albion was due for a sale, and this is it!!

But this is no sale you say?

In reality it is...and an effective viral advertising campaign to boot!! Just as people here are lamenting the increase, other people are telling each other the change is coming and they are rushing to get orders into Albion before the increase comes due. If this all holds true to form, we'll begin hearing some of those voices soon. In the end sales are all about bringing future sales forward. In this instance Albion has chosen to do that by warning of an increase instead of running a cut. Not the fist time they've used that strategy successfully.

Great thing is that when they work through their backlog in six months or so, and there will be a glut of new orders that come in, they can run a sale at today's current prices and fill their queue again. Cool Cool


+1

The smart thing to do would be for them to offer a 10% discount for myArmoury donating members. Thus supporting the site and members that support Albion so well. Call it advertising budget or call it goodwill.

The reality is that you can get a Barta sword for similar money to the top priced Albions assuming you are prepared to get in line for 3 years.

I have 3 Albion swords, 2 Conan and the Vigil. I think they are excellent and the quality is second to no production makers out there. I can't see myself buying another. I will stick to custom makers in the future. Unless of course something comes up that I cant live without Laughing Out Loud and of course I will wait for a sale!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Here's the rub though...Gus blades are quality. As is most custom swords. The argument isn't getting the hanwei over albion, it's getting the chimera line for a good chunk less or paying a bit more going custom (or in the case of some makers, still paying less). That is a hard place to be as a price point.


I really don't get this comment at all. The Chimera line might produce quality items, but they aren't the same quality items produced by Albion. They aren't trying to be. It's not an issue of "more" quality or "less" quality, but an issue of "completely different" quality.

The Chimera products consist of swords that are of a modern-day design and have very little to do with anything that Albion produces. The products are night and day. The Chimera line is not even attempting to produce products with same intent and so I don't really understand the comparison. There are far, far, far more differences with the product lines than there are similarities.

Further, I know of very few custom makers that produce work at the price-point of an Albion item that is as well researched or that produce a final product that is as similar to an authentic, historical antique. In fact, I can only think of a handful of makers (at any price) that have access to the amount or quality of research as Albion does. The list becomes even smaller when one considers the maker's ability to then produce a sword based on the research that ends up close to the authentic pieces serving as inspiration. That remaining list does not have makers who produce swords at the price-point being discussed.

As I mentioned in this topic, Albion has chosen a unique path in the industry. They are making quality products that are well researched and are by and large more historically-accurate than most any other production swords.

Don't kid yourself: R&D costs a lot of money. This is a large part of the cost of an Albion. And why wouldn't it be? Concept and design is a large part of any product design, be it that of a sword, a Web site, a consumer product, a magazine ad, a house, a car, or anything else.

All design is expensive, but design based on extensive study and research is more costly by a large factor. Pulling a design out of one's head is not an easy task, but adding traveling to museums and collections to gain access to antiques, documenting those antiques, interpreting the findings, studying history and other issues of context, solving issues of production methodology and limitations, and translating all of that into a final product is vastly more difficult. Difficult work produces expensive prices.

As Peter Lyon mentioned above: QUALITY COSTS MONEY.

I'd like to add that the type of quality that Albion produces isn't important to everybody. As I mentioned in my previous post, Albion produces swords aimed at a niche market: those interested in well-researched, well-executed historically-based swords. This is a small consumer base and even smaller once one considers those who can afford to actually purchase the items.

For the record, I'm part of their niche market and, by and large, I cannot really afford the items. Bummer for me. Bummer for a lot of us.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 2:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To a large extent, this discussion reminds me of many I've seen on some hat forums that I read (a big fedora wearer here). The big problem there is that the "American" (could just as well say "western", since the situation is pretty similar here in Europe) market wants to buy stuff that they like, but to do so cheaply. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for manufacturers to invest in quality since that costs money. That's the main reason why the hats made by companies such as Stetson are not up to the quality that they were 50-80 years ago. The majority of people will rather buy a 5-20 dollar mass produced linen or wool felt hat from a supermarket, or (at most) 100-200 dollar good quality fur felt hat from a big company, than a 500-1000 dollar high quality fur felt hat from a custom maker.

It really comes to the questions of "what do you want?" and "what you are willing to pay for it?" Everyone will have different answers to those questions. Personally, my traditional archery hobby has delayed and cancelled some of my sword "wants", but I still intend to purchase the A&A Gustav Vasa at some point, as well as the shorter XIIa sword that Peter Johnson said that he would like to do for Albion.
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
In my experience, money set aside for toys at a later date gets spent on house repairs, car repairs, and whatever else comes up in the meantime. Plus, with price increases every couple years, I may end up chasing their rising prices with whatever savings I can muster. Let's say I can find $400 a year for 3 years to set aside. After 3 years, the $1200 sword I wanted to buy may be $1400.

This exact thing has been happening to me like frigging clockwork since I first decided I wanted an Albion. I do manage to put some money aside every month, but am still no closer to owning one today than I was four years ago...[/i]

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 3:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marko Susimetsa wrote:
To a large extent, this discussion reminds me of many I've seen on some hat forums that I read (a big fedora wearer here). The big problem there is that the "American" (could just as well say "western", since the situation is pretty similar here in Europe) market wants to buy stuff that they like, but to do so cheaply.

You know, I'm fairly sure that's just a universal function of plain common sense, rather than something specific to the "western" market...

PS. My fedora can beat up your fedora! Big Grin

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Marko Susimetsa




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 3:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Marko Susimetsa wrote:
To a large extent, this discussion reminds me of many I've seen on some hat forums that I read (a big fedora wearer here). The big problem there is that the "American" (could just as well say "western", since the situation is pretty similar here in Europe) market wants to buy stuff that they like, but to do so cheaply.

You know, I'm fairly sure that's just a universal function of plain common sense, rather than something specific to the "western" market...

PS. My fedora can beat up your fedora! Big Grin

Huh, I see your point! Big Grin

But, yes, the problem is indeed that people have become ignorant of quality - short term satisfaction has become more important than long-term durability. Of course, in many cases this is just what the manufacturers want: why sell something that lasts when you can sell something that can be sold many times to the same person? When you do get people who focus on quality (custom hatters, weapon smiths, and "good" companies like Albion) they have a hard time reminding people that quality costs money.

PS. No one can beat up an Akubra fedora - well you can beat it, but it only gets better because of it! Happy
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marko Susimetsa wrote:
Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Marko Susimetsa wrote:
To a large extent, this discussion reminds me of many I've seen on some hat forums that I read (a big fedora wearer here). The big problem there is that the "American" (could just as well say "western", since the situation is pretty similar here in Europe) market wants to buy stuff that they like, but to do so cheaply.

You know, I'm fairly sure that's just a universal function of plain common sense, rather than something specific to the "western" market...

PS. My fedora can beat up your fedora! Big Grin

Huh, I see your point! Big Grin

But, yes, the problem is indeed that people have become ignorant of quality - short term satisfaction has become more important than long-term durability. Of course, in many cases this is just what the manufacturers want: why sell something that lasts when you can sell something that can be sold many times to the same person? When you do get people who focus on quality (custom hatters, weapon smiths, and "good" companies like Albion) they have a hard time reminding people that quality costs money.

PS. No one can beat up an Akubra fedora - well you can beat it, but it only gets better because of it! Happy

That's certainly one thing. Most people, even those superficially interested in swords, don't actually know how much of a difference there can be between a sword and a sword - a sword is a sword is a sword, right? If it's reasonably sharp and won't fall apart in normal use, it takes actual study for one to know to ask for more. It takes practice to be able to appreciate differences in handling, and if you've never had your hands on a really good sword you simply don't possess the frame of reference to tell how much better it feels than a merely adequate one.

The same also goes for other niche markets like quality hats, of course. Happy

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Marko Susimetsa wrote:
To a large extent, this discussion reminds me of many I've seen on some hat forums that I read (a big fedora wearer here). The big problem there is that the "American" (could just as well say "western", since the situation is pretty similar here in Europe) market wants to buy stuff that they like, but to do so cheaply.

You know, I'm fairly sure that's just a universal function of plain common sense, rather than something specific to the "western" market...

No. I mean, yes, that impulse is universal, but with Americans it becomes a very special kind of pathology. I say this after eight years of naval service, no fewer than six of which were spent overseas. In terms of feeling the need to buy large quantities of stuff and having it be as cheap as possible no matter the consequences, nobody on Earth compares to us. We're the ones who are up in arms when gas prices go up, even though most developed countries pay about double what we do. We're the ones who've outsource our entire manufacturing sector to China, India and a host of third world nations while killing our local businesses by dropping monolithic Walmarts in the middle of every town in America, where the fruits of Chinese labor can be had for pennies. This trend has resulted in almost across-the-board negative trade balances (the Census Bureau's website has a complete listing, if you want to be depressed for the rest of the day).

I have nothing against Hanwei. I own two Bugei katanas with a third on the way, which are manufactured by Hanwei with the imposition of Bugei's specifications and quality control. This makes them about on par with Albion in terms of pricing; the Shi Shi being the Svante of their lineup. This is the exception for me, because there is no comparable maker of high end production Japanese swords. I prefer to do business with Albion and A&A mostly because they rock, but also because their stuff is made in a shop in America, by skilled American craftsmen; the very kind our peculiar system of economic assumptions and incentives has been targeting with sniper-like precision. I specifically mentioned paying a premium for Albion not being a sweatshop in China because that's a very accurate description of why I'm paying it. Obviously swordmaking is a cottage industry that has little impact on things from a macroeconomic perspective, but it is an observable microcosm of what's happened to America as a whole, and it is one place where I personally have chosen to draw a line in the sand. If a Chinese company bought a bunch of Albions and then started selling their own versions for half the price, I wouldn't touch them. Because I hate what this has done to us and I can only fight back with dollars.

(As a disclaimer, I should mention that I don't include makers like Cervenka and Barta in this equation. Nor would I turn my nose up at a Albionesque company in England, were one to arise there. Specifically, I oppose the gutting of domestic industry in the name of flooding the market with cheap stuff. I'd frankly rather own far less stuff, swords included, if it comes down to choosing between one Albion and a dozen cheaper Hanwei and Windlass pieces.)

(Another disclaimer, since Angus Trim was mentioned. Yes, Angus Trim makes very good swords and I like them. However, the other premium I'm willing to pay is for more or less uncompromising historical accuracy. That's what puts Albion ahead of most other makers of high quality swords. Speaking only for myself, of course. That isn't as important to some people. But you can't argue that an ATrim weapon is as faithful to its source material as an Albion. Gus isn't even trying to be. If high-performance cutters are your thing, then rock on, but the two makers have entirely different goals, design-wise. Like Nathan, I'm just in Albion's niche.)

Pax,
Sam Barris

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Look at steel prices over the past 3 years..... Albions increasing their prices to make a larger profit.... not to make the same profit because of "rising costs"


Funny, my reciepts for buying steel don't look like that, nor do my electric bills, phone bills, reciepts for leather, reciepts for lumber, insurance or anything else we use/buy, they all seem to keep creeping up ( oddly enough just like everybody elses cost of living/doing business ) must be Albion operates in some sort of " cost vacume " where they get a special break on all this stuff huh?
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just my two cents-
While Albion's price increase will sting and perhaps delay or end some people's dreams of owning one, where there's a will there's always a way. Anything worth having is worth sweating for, and if you want it badly enough you will find a way without destroying your home life. If I was as rich as, say, Paris Hilton, I could buy anything I wanted ANY TIME I wanted it, like she does. That sounds great at first, and it would be for those of us who don't live that lifestyle. But the flip side of that is that when things come too easily, nothing holds any value for you. Lots of super rich people don't seem all that happy a lot of the time. Maybe that's part of it? I'm not saying I wouldn't mind trying it myself, but to me at least, the thrill of finally getting something you suffered all kinds of pains to get is SOOOO much more satisfying than just being able to go BUY it like you would a pair of sneakers. I handle and baby my Albion's and A&A's like a doting father, and I maintain them happily, and a large part of it was because of the back-breaking effort I had to exert just to GET one. The value of them to me is so much greater than it would be if it came too easily. And when you consider that a fine blade back in the day was worth the equivalent of what your home is today, it helps to put it in a better perspective, to me at least. While Albion's price increase is a stomach blow to me as well, I don't doubt that eventually I will own another, and I will value it as much if not more than the others, not only because it will take a greater effort to get one, but as so many here have said in other ways, Albion's swords are a time machine, like Professor Peabody's Way-Back machine. I can't really put a price on how it feels to hold one, turn it in the light, and think "This is what it actually felt like to hold one of these a thousand years ago." I find myself involuntarily holding my breath when I handle them sometimes. So I will grumble and complain as much as anyone, but deep down I am glad that Albion is around, doing what they do against all business reason, for the sheer love of it. They must survive, for all our sakes, and if they have to be hard-nosed to survive, well, that's what good businessmen do. So few companies put quality above production these days. Profits are everything to most, and those companies make crappy products because their priorities are not about quality as much as churning out as much mass-produced product as possible at the expense of individual attention, which is what makes Albion's (and A&A) so different, and frankly, so costly. So God bless 'em, I say. Whatever complaining we're doing now is nothing compared to what we'd hear if they went belly up.
Okay, I'm done.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff A. Arbogast wrote:
Just my two cents-
While Albion's price increase will sting and perhaps delay or end some people's dreams of owning one, where there's a will there's always a way. Anything worth having is worth sweating for, and if you want it badly enough you will find a way without destroying your home life.


Indeed. We're not talking THAT much money after all. People who say they cannot afford an Albion drive vehicles and live in homes that cost so much more. A monthly payment on a 2000 dollar credit card balance is only about 50 bucks, and that's just the easiest way you could get one, not the smartest.

Quote:
If I was as rich as, say, Paris Hilton, I could buy anything I wanted ANY TIME I wanted it, like she does. That sounds great at first, and it would be for those of us who don't live that lifestyle. But the flip side of that is that when things come too easily, nothing holds any value for you. Lots of super rich people don't seem all that happy a lot of the time. Maybe that's part of it? I'm not saying I wouldn't mind trying it myself, but to me at least, the thrill of finally getting something you suffered all kinds of pains to get is SOOOO much more satisfying than just being able to go BUY it like you would a pair of sneakers.


There is great wisdom in this.

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Jeff A. Arbogast wrote:
If I was as rich as, say, Paris Hilton, I could buy anything I wanted ANY TIME I wanted it, like she does. That sounds great at first, and it would be for those of us who don't live that lifestyle. But the flip side of that is that when things come too easily, nothing holds any value for you. Lots of super rich people don't seem all that happy a lot of the time. Maybe that's part of it? I'm not saying I wouldn't mind trying it myself, but to me at least, the thrill of finally getting something you suffered all kinds of pains to get is SOOOO much more satisfying than just being able to go BUY it like you would a pair of sneakers.


There is great wisdom in this.

Dunno... "Money can't buy happiness" has always born a distinct scent of "The Fox and the Grapes", to me. Happy

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's true that money cannot buy happiness. But it does help.

I believe I read a study in Time Magazine, once, that found that the happiest Americans are those of the upper-middle class and the lower-upper class. This being the class of people who tend to be well-educated, have few debts, own their own house, can send their children through a state college without a loan, and can generally afford whatever they want, just not all at once.

" For Augustus, and after him Tiberius, more interested in establishing and increasing their own power than in promoting the public good, began to disarm the Roman people (in order to make them more passive under their tyranny).... "
-N. Machiavelli, The Art of War
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2010 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello All,

I offered up the concept of a signature loan for those with good credit as the interest charged by a good bank or credit union is far less than a credit card. Nobody bit that I could tell.

Now, I had a friend back in the 1980's who scored a high paying job and a new wife that made at least twice what he did. He went for being a "starving" blue collar working to being able to buy what ever he wanted, when he wanted. They were bringing in something like $500,000 a year in the mid 1980's with no kids or big debts.

He hated it. Yep hated it, He told me so one day when pealing off a check for a very desirable antique firearm at the shop I worked at.

In the past, he'd have to go with out, wheel and deal, and make complex trades to end up with the collectible firearms he wanted...

turned out it was those actions that made the firearm purchase that more meaningful (and sweet). Now there was little joy or thrill in adding to his collect as it was just money.

I understood what he meant when he told me this as that was the same thing I had to do to afford the firearms I wanted.

In my case I had to always cull something to buy something new. At the same time he was living large I was a broke newlywed living on 24K a year in Alaska, yet during that time I was able to own a number of expensive firearms... just not all at once, nor at the same time.

So, it really comes down to this, none of us have working knowledge on the particulars on Albion's price increase, if they have to raise the price to survive, they have to raise the price... get over it. If there is one sword that you must have, save up, sell items, go with out luxuries, wheel and deal on other items to work towards having the money for that Albion, buy used if you must., you can make it happen. I did on many different items that I could not just go out and buy on a number of occasions in my life, you can too.

If you do this, your treasure that sword more than any other as you worked for it.

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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