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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a quick note on the etymology of "Gae Bolga" (and my knowlege is not complete):

"Gae" is simply "spear" in Gaelic, although I think it could cover a wide range of spear-like weapons (javelin, lance etc). The word "gae" is also refelcted in the Gaesatae-- the Gaulish spearmen noted by Roman historians (and soldiers).

"Bolga" is normally seen as meaning "bellows" and is related to "bolg" meaning "bag". I note this because the "Fir Bolg", one of the mythical invaders of Ireland could be translated "Men of the Bag (or pouch)". Some authors have suggested that this was because of their former existence as slaves (carrying sacks); others have suggested that they wore a totemic bag around their neck, in which sacred or otherwise meaningful items were kept. The Fenian cycle possibly describes this practice with regards to Fionn Mac Cumhaill.

With regards to Gae Bolga, some have seen it as meaning "bellows spear"-- i.e it was projected from the ground by means of stepping on a kind of bellows. It seems unlikely that this was the case (although the myths are not above a good bit of sensationalism).

Some have traced Gae Bolga's etymology to "notched spear"-- this seems more likely from a historical point of view-- as to wheter it is a fair rendering from Gaelic, I don't know.

Another possibility is that Gae Bolga is a spear after the manner of the Fir Bolg-- whether we see them as Belgae as some modern scholars do or not, this seems likely as well.

Interestingly, the "b" in "Bolg" and "Bolga" is aspirated, like a "v". The "g" can be hard or even like a "k" (IIRC). Thusly you would have the "Gae Volka", which sounds quite a bit like "gaveloc" in English...

Interesting discussion.

David
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Matthew Kelty





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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 4:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"By the way, according to the book, many darts were fletched..."

And this would jive with the accounts of the English during the wars in Irelend. They reported that at night, while trying to sleep, they would be kept awake by the incessant unearthly howling of the darts. A shaft flying through the air is fairly quiet, but when you have a stiff leather 4" fletching vibrating through the air, it's got a pretty mean "vvvvvvvvvvwwwwooooo" sound to it.

David, thank you!
BTW, do we have what 'Gae Bolga' is really spelled like in Gaelic? I wasn't sure if that was the Gaelic or Anglicized version of the word. I knew that "bh" is "v", so was kind of expecting it to be written as "Gabholga", or something along those lines.
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Stephen Wittsell




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2004 7:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David McElrea wrote:
Just a quick note on the etymology of "Gae Bolga" (and my knowlege is not complete):
With regards to Gae Bolga, some have seen it as meaning "bellows spear"-- i.e it was projected from the ground by means of stepping on a kind of bellows. It seems unlikely that this was the case (although the myths are not above a good bit of sensationalism).

Some have traced Gae Bolga's etymology to "notched spear"-- this seems more likely from a historical point of view-- as to wheter it is a fair rendering from Gaelic, I don't know.
David


Man I love this forum!! The knowlege base here is staggering. Ask a simple question and you get etymology, history and everything in between. You guys are awsome.

I found quite a few references to Gae Bolga as the bellows spear. Also belly spear as that seems to have been the prefered target for this particular, barbed weapon. If I remember correctly Cuchulain recieved the spear from Sathach. A female "trainer of champions" located on the Isle of Skye of the coast of Alba, (Scotland), and the appropriate fete was to launch it with the foot. This seems to me a strange way to cast a spear but could go back to the bit about launching a spear from the ground by stomping on a bellows.

As Arte Johnson used to say, "Very interesting, but........"

Steve

There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable application of high explosives.
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2004 12:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Kelty wrote:
Quote:
BTW, do we have what 'Gae Bolga' is really spelled like in Gaelic? I wasn't sure if that was the Gaelic or Anglicized version of the word. I knew that "bh" is "v", so was kind of expecting it to be written as "Gabholga", or something along those lines.


Hi Matthew,

I'm pretty sure "Gae Bolga" is the real spelling-- again, some others may be able to give you a more certain answer, but I'm pretty much dead certain Happy

David
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Jeanry Chandler




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Aug, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many of y'all proabably already know this, but the thonged spear is a very, very ancient weapon which used to be called the 'weavers beam', going back to pre Mycenean Greece at least. The thong was wound around the shaft of the spear, then when the spear was thrown, it would unwind, imparting spin. So just as good as vaned.

The Romans also had a vaned dart which they called a 'plumbata'.

I' ve seen a lot of javelins in many cultures but usually only the short ones are vaned.

interesting thread!

DB

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Emiliano Zapata
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jun, 2005 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
There is portrait of Sir Neill O'Neill that was painted in about 1680(pg.138 of Arms and Armor of the Samurai by Bottomly and Hopson) that shows the O'Neill about to cast such a dart and an attendant carrying four more. These are about 4' long with shafts tapering from butt to point and small,barbed, bronze heads. They have no fletchings though finger loops as illustrated in your post are present. These loops are tied very close to the butt end of the shaft (maybe 8" from the butt).


Here's a link to another thread showing that portrait:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ight=skean

My new question concerns the material and construction of the dart head. I'd like to make some darts, and I'm wondering if I could use a brass rod or heavy brass sheet (a kick-plate for a door?) to approximate at least the look of the bronze head. I'd use the historically plausible technique of forming a cone from the bottom of a triangle of the metal and otherwise forming the head through a mix of hammer and file work. I've made a few paper models to get the general design right, and I'd like to experiment with the technique although I suspect that a bronze head would have been cast. But who knows? I mean, really, who knows? Allen? Matthew? Jeanry? Were dart heads of bronze ever formed with this ancient construction technique? Any arguments against making the head this way (other than the inevitable weak spot where the socket becomes the barbed head)?

PS: Since first posting on this subject, I've learned that Irish Arms can supply both heads and finished darts for a very reasonable price. I still feel that I should try my hand at this project, though.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 1:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are a couple of forked spears shown in "the Life of Edward the Confessor", dated ca 1250:


However, these do not look like javelin type weapons. On the other hand, it is a classic example of the artistic tradition of using a bunch of polearms sticking up behind a group of soldiers to illustrate a Multitude™. The artist is allready outside the "standard" page with the spear points, so maybe he just does not have the room to show difference in lengt.

The manuscript can be found at:
http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/MSS/Ee.3.59/index.html

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Matthew Kelty





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

>Were dart heads of bronze ever formed with this ancient construction technique?

I'm not sure which method you're referring to, but I'm tempted to say they were always cast.

Brass by itself is too brittle, Bronze adds the Copper and Zinc to the Brass, and really toughens it up. Further work hardening the end and edges with a hammer when you're done really finishes it nicely.

Since you're dealing with (comparatively) low temperature pours (1570 - 1850 °F for bronze compared to the 2800-3000 °F for Iron and Steel), and since a sand cast is a cinch to set up, it really can be handled with a fairly low tech operation, back then, and even now.
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Matthew. Especially good point about the different work properties of brass and bronze. I've worked a bit with brass (cold, only), and noticed that it can quickly harden and crack on the anvil. I'll see if my little propane torch can help me get around that problem for this project. Maybe I'll try some sheet steel as well, since nonferrous heads most likely were cast rather than hammered out. Oh, as for technique, I was referring to the practice of simply rolling the base of a triangle of metal to form a socket, then finishing with hammer and files the flat, lanceolate bit of metal left above the socket.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Matthew Kelty





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I'll see if my little propane torch can help me get around that problem for this project.


Just remember that Annealing (softening) is bassackwards with the non-ferrous metals. Heat it up and immediately quench it to soften it up. Looking forward to seeing your results!
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the tip! I've just looked up some info online about annealing brass, and will give this a try.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Wed 08 Jun, 2005 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matthew Kelty





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The annealing temperature of Brass is 800-1350 degrees. It's hard to see the color on the gold and red metals, but suffice to say a Propane torch will heat it up to about 1500 degrees in fairly short order (1-2 minutes?). I was working with some brass sheet, and could just barely see a hint of red in it.

BTW, I erred in my alloy description. Brass is Copper and Zinc, Bronze is Copper and Tin.
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now I'm getting excited! I guess soon enough y'all will either see a crude dart head or read about a horrible accident in Gardendale, Alabama--or perhaps both. Laughing Out Loud

Thanks for the help!

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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George Hill




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PostPosted: Wed 24 Aug, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did anyone ever make any of these darts? I'm thinking of trying it out, but what I'll be making, if I ever get around to it, will be a few 'elcheapo' numbers. That is, dowels with a sharp metal point on them... If I can come up with a sharp metal point. Wink
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2005 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is still on my long to-do list. Lately, I'm wondering if a medieval broadhead would be appropriate. The dart head depicted in the O'Neil portrait is pretty small, after all. The shaft tapers down the socket. Just to get some idea of the cost of getting some custom heads made, I got a bid of about $36 per head from Irish Arms, which seems very reasonable. If you could find somebody in the U.S. who makes medieval arrow heads, you might save a few bucks and still get an historically plausible head.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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George Hill




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2005 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
This is still on my long to-do list. Lately, I'm wondering if a medieval broadhead would be appropriate. The dart head depicted in the O'Neil portrait is pretty small, after all. The shaft tapers down the socket. Just to get some idea of the cost of getting some custom heads made, I got a bid of about $36 per head from Irish Arms, which seems very reasonable. If you could find somebody in the U.S. who makes medieval arrow heads, you might save a few bucks and still get an historically plausible head.


Since I was thinking of doing a good bit of throwing, which over time should lead to a good deal of breaking, I was thinking of buying a flat bar from home depo, and cutting it into a large number of triangles. Then cutting slots into some dowels, adding a bit of fletching... and then hocking them about.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To make something sturdier and more historically plausible, you could simply cut some triangles out of thin sheet steel and bend the bases of the triangles around to form sockets. You can experiment with cardboard of the same thickness first to refine your design. You'd have to leave a long peak of the triangle un-bent to form the head. That could be lanceolate or barbed (Irish darts seem to have been barbed). I made a cardboard model of a barbed head. Basically, I cut out the triangle, cut out enough material to make the barbs, which narrows the "neck" and isolates the head from the bending of the base to form the socket. Then, theoretically, you'd simply shape your shaft and glue/pin the head to the end. You could hammer/file/grind the edges of the head a bit to flatten them and form a central ridge for a more authentic look.

The attached photo is from the Legio XX site ( http://www.larp.com/legioxx/auxilia.html scroll down to "spears"), and although it shows a robust spear head, you could use the same technique to make a simple, stubbier dart head out of thin stock. Just adjust the length of the triangle to shorten the head/socket. I would expect that the sheet steel you'd be using could be worked cold for this application.



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-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2005 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another helpful site:
http://the-exiles.org/Article%20makingarrow.htm

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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George Hill




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Sean. Have any other resources on short javelins/darts of ANY kind? As long as we are experimenting, we might as well look at the widest base of possibilities.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You've seen the late Roman javelins (not the plumbata,) which I'm guessing are pretty close to what the Irish would have used, in terms of size, shape.

The Osprey book "The Irish Wars" is a valuable reference for 15th-16th c. Irish military organization, tactics and equipment. Be VERY skeptical of the modern illustrations though. The text includes contemporary descriptions of the darts.

Study Derrick's illustrations: http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...eland.html

The best reference for this particular weapon is probably the full-color version of the O'Neil portrait Mac recently posted in another thread.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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