| Wich would win in a battle? |
| Knight |
|
81% |
[ 30 ] |
| Samurai |
|
8% |
[ 3 ] |
| Ninja |
|
10% |
[ 4 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 37 |
|
| Author |
Message |
|
Ozsváth Árpád-István
|
 Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Well, this was, I guess.
| Ozsváth Árpád-István wrote: |
If you don't believe me take a look at K1 or MMA (this is much closer to the "real thing") tournaments, and see that modern "samurais" and "ninjas" are not so bright, european fighters have superior constitution and "firepower". |
Japan often complains that they don't have enough heavyweigth fighters. That's a fact. In contact sports size matters.
Japan has excellent natural defenses, they were isolated and "frozen in time". There was no need for major changes and improvements in armament or tactics for centuries.
On the other hand in Europe was a different situation, there were many nations and cultures, therefore weapons and combat tactics had to adapt quickly, they were more versatile and suffered sudden and dramatic changes.
Now for the ninja. I don't consider the ninja a true warrior. He couldn't stand a chance against a samurai in the battlefield. They were silent assassins, masters of stealth, trained to eliminate a specific target, to sneak, create confusion or wait for the right moment for the kill using unorthodox methods, like poisoning their victims.
Well, besides the comparison, the original question was " Knights and what their swords ment to them." Chivalry was closely related to Christianity and therefore the cruciform sword was a strong religious symbol used to butcher "the heathens", "the unbelievers", "the heretics" or anyone else who stood in the way of the Church or the Kingdom, against all basic doctrines on which Christianity relies. "You shall not kill, only if you have orders" 
|
|
   |
 |
|
Jeremy V. Krause
|
| Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Thanks for this fascinating and informative thread!!
|
|
|
|
|
Walter S
|
| Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ozsváth Árpád-István wrote: | | "You shall not kill, only if you have orders" |
It is pretty much agreed upon that the meaning of the phrase is "You shall not murder" - that is, unlawfully kill innocent. It does not prohibit killing in war, The Bible actually praises killing enemies in war - for example David killing Goliath.
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 487
|
| Posted: Thu 13 May, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
Japanese armour got quite heavy. Personally i prefer European but its hard to not see the usefulness of Japanese armour against European weapons (spear is a spear everywhere, ditto with arrows.)
E Pluribus Unum
|
|
 |
|
Tom King
|
| Posted: Fri 14 May, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Michael Curl wrote: | | spear is a spear everywhere, ditto with arrows. |
Thats terribly incorrect. Japanese spears are definately not armor peircing. Its all down to blade profile. leaf bladed spears were replaced by glorified spikes because it pierces armor better. jap arrows were broadheads and therefore useless on armor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grayson C.
|
| Posted: Fri 14 May, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Also, lets not forget that the tanged shafts of japanese spears and arrowheads made them prone to breakage in the stab when compared to european socket design.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timo Nieminen
|
| Posted: Fri 14 May, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tom King wrote: | | Michael Curl wrote: | | spear is a spear everywhere, ditto with arrows. |
Thats terribly incorrect. Japanese spears are definately not armor peircing. |
Sankaku-yari (triangular [cross-section]) seem to be the most common. A "normal" hira-sankaku-yari (flat triangular) head often has a thickness of about half its width, so quite stout. Sei-sankaku-yari (equilateral triangular) were also common, especially for cavalry. Square section also common enough; Knutsen describes the blunt pyramidal tip common on these as "intended to punch a hole through armour".
Definitely thrusting heads, not cutting heads, even on many (most?) very long-headed spears (omi-no-yari). Not going to go through any plate but the thinnest, but robust enough to survive the experience of hitting heavy armour.
Thick and narrow blades are usually considered indicative of armour-piercing function. Why not typical Japanese spearheads?
| Tom King wrote: | | Its all down to blade profile. leaf bladed spears were replaced by glorified spikes because it pierces armor better. jap arrows were broadheads and therefore useless on armor. |
Except for the arrowheads that weren't broadheads. I've seen square-section with pyramidal point, thick diamond-section with pyramidal point, chisel-headed, and more, that are much like European anti-armour heads.
One difference between Japanese heads and Indo-Persian/Ottoman/European heads is that the Japanese heads often have parallel sides, and then a shorter, less acute, taper to the point, while the non-Japanese heads more often have a more uniform taper to the point. The less acute angle means they'll be less effective at piercing armour, and the parallel sides mean that they'll be more effective if they do pierce it. Once the tip is in, the rest of the head can follow to considerable depth with relatively little resistance. Sometimes, the tip is wider than the rest of the head.
Votive arrowheads (and other decorated arrowheads) are almost always broadheads.
|
|
 |
|
|
Daniel de Castro Caputo
Location: Brazil Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 11
|
| Posted: Tue 18 May, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well...
The symbolic value of a knight´s sword was great, but it never achieved the spiritual totem status that the katana meant to the samurai... However, it was a symbol of his honor, his name, his word, so better not to underestimate this...
As for the confrontation between japanese and europeans...
When the portuguese arrived in japan, there was an incident when a single warship stood up against an entire clan... They were using cannons, of course...
Later on, the the king of Portugal ordered an spiritual conquest of japan (because he couldn´t spare his "armada" that was being used to conquer and control the much more valuable India). In this way, the "companhia dos jesuítas" began to send missionaries to christianize Japan. The priests were guarded by portuguese soldiers, and sometimes there were confrontation between these soldier and samurais. There were duels, and there are registers of these duels both in "torre do tombo", in portugal, and in the Japanese Imperial Museum...
There´s no register of one of these duels being won by a samurai... It seems that the "espadeiros" won mostly by thrusting their swords in the samurais axiles.
Daniel de Castro Caputo
|
|
 |
|
Bennison N
|
| Posted: Tue 18 May, 2010 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Daniel de Castro Caputo wrote: | There were duels, and there are registers of these duels both in "torre do tombo", in portugal, and in the Japanese Imperial Museum...
There´s no register of one of these duels being won by a samurai... It seems that the "espadeiros" won mostly by thrusting their swords in the samurais axiles. |
I've heard this often too. I keep telling my Modern-day Samurai mates this, although it seems they never believe me...
Not too drag this off-topic too much, but where might I find the records of these duels? I've always really wanted to know more about them. If possible, could you PM me the whereabouts please?
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
|
|
|
|
|
|
Daniel de Castro Caputo
Location: Brazil Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 11
|
| Posted: Tue 18 May, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
couldn´t find any document on the web as a reference regarding portuguese and samurai duel, but you could search in the book of the clan shimazu and the work of Dr. Stephen Turnbull, PHD in japanese religion and the samurai.
Unfortunately, Torre do Tombo files can not be accessed on-line...
Daniel de Castro Caputo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic
