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Hadrian Coffin
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 8:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
What To Expect When You're Expecting a Stantler Field Sword: Significantly flatten the pommel on a grinder and narrow the foot and nut, thin and soften the edges of the outside bars, finger rings, knucklebow and quillon block, add simple filed detail to guard terminals, slope the shoulders of the blade, narrow the lower third of the blade, create shorter, wire-bound grip and turks heads, blacken hilt.


Hello,
I believe I have touched lightly on this subject before in another topic... The two points in the above that I would disagree with being necessary are the bluing and turks heads. While they would bring the finished sword closer in line with the A612 they are not necessary for this type. There are dozens of these swords in warehouses and private collections around the world. Many have wire-bound grips with turks heads, many without. There are also many in mint condition with no sign of ever being blued. That said, both of the aforementioned points would help in making a more accurate representation of the A612 specifically.
Cheers!

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

True, and I am thinking mainly of A612 (I don't think A612 has turks' heads) and the other blued examples. I'm not sure why there would be such variation in swords from the same workshop, though, and I wonder which treatments represent the majority in their working life. Broken wire and core can be replaced without disassembling the sword, and a damaged original bluing might well have been polished away entirely rather than re-blued, even in the sword's working life. It does seem that most surviving examples are bright.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Wed 05 Jan, 2011 10:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 9:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian Coffin wrote:
Hello,
The inside (back) of the guard on the Museum Replicas sword looks quite bad. It would be very difficult to correct. I haven't seen any historical examples in which the three bars converge in such a manner.


That's correct, and there's a similar problem up front. It's typical of Windlass complex hilts, in fact, though far better in this case than in many others. It can't really be corrected, but can be aesthetically improved with some filework. It will be a deal breaker for some, but considering that the DOTD price is $150 shipped and the next step up in quality is about $700 more, I think most collectors could live with it, even at a much higher price if improved in other ways. I'm comparing this sword literally side by side with my A&A TG, and I'm impressed with it. It will never be as wonderful as the TG, but it can be quite good with some work. I personally wouldn't keep it in my collection as-is, but that's true of almost everything I buy.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 06 Jan, 2011 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hadrian Coffin
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It has been a while since I last saw the A612, and my photos are a bit blury (it was behind glass)... but I believe it has a turks head on the lower part of the grip, but not up near the pommel.
It would probably be easier to make a new guard, but it may be possible to cut the three bars apart, draw them out a bit and re-weld...

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I probably won't compare these swords in detail in my formal reviews, so I'm just going to let the photos speak for themselves here. All of the Munich's problems should be clear from these. The quality difference is evident but, again, so is the price difference. By the way, as-is, the point of balance points of both swords is within approximately .5" of each other, with the Munich balance closer to the hilt. That's good, because that hilt is going to lose more weight than the blade during my work and I think this piece could stand a bit more blade presence.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 06 Jan, 2011 9:07 am; edited 3 times in total
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More:


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hum...Seeing these shots I'm starting to find it very hard to believe that this windlass was not a attempt to copy the A&A (though it can be argued that there is a great deal of these swords that are almost identical in various museums)...

I need to learn how to weld these hilts together...

Thanks for the very informative pics Sean...I've wanted to compare these two pieces fo a while now and this is just perfect.

J
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Munich pommel is one of the things I find most telling about the Windlass R&D. If one sees only a typical photo of one of these swords, there's little to suggest that the pommel is flattened. To catch that detail you either have to dig hard for some oblique views of antiques or the A&A Town Guard. The fact that Windlass has now made at least two swords also in the A&A catalog (Munich and the "Erbach Sword") adds fuel for speculation, but it must remain speculation.

I should add here that my upgrade of the Munich sword will be based on photos of originals rather than the TG. As good as the TG is, I don't want to get into the habit of parroting other reproductions. That's one reason I alter almost everything that comes through my hands. I want something unique!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
That's one reason I alter almost everything that comes through my hands. I want something unique!

And we are all the richer for it. Cool

While I have no problems tearing apart (reproduction) armour and modifying it, quite frankly I'm terrified of attempting the weapon builds/alterations that you, Luke Zechman, Kirk Lee Spencer, and many others illustrate so well. The progress threads are a treat to follow.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jump in, Scott! What's the worst that can happen. Well, actually, you could be holding a piece of ash against a table saw blade and reach down to adjust the guide and lift the start mechanism instead. Almost happened to me. Or, after grinding a tang you could burn your hand on that blistering-hot steel, juggle the blade, slice open a finger of the opposite hand and narrowly miss severing a toe or two. DID happen to me. Other than that, it's great fun. Plus, adding your blood to a project makes it magic!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chris Arrington





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean,

Thanks for the Pics ! They were quite interesting to me, because my A&A TG and yours, are twins if you remember. They were manufactured/assembled at the same time. The major differences were that I had my hilt blued, and a custom etched inscription on the blade.

I had intended to have Craig build me a matching dagger, but the quoted price has been prohibitive to my budget the past year or so.

I did however pick up the Windlass Munich dagger in the bargain bin special, sharpened and delivered , for right at $100. Not bad for the cost. My biggest complaints were the stupid drilled holes in the blade near the crossguard, and as you observed, the spherical pommel instead of the more flattened shape of the TG pommel.

I'm planning on bluing the daggers hilt and pommel to match my TG.

Thanks again !
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
OK, Julien, et al.: This one just hit the MRL "Deal of the Day" bin for $132! I'm sorely tempted to get one, review it and fix it up, but...must...resist.......too many...projects....

But maybe one of you folks will give it a try.

http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-729-munich-sword.aspx
Can't believe I'm going to say too bad I missed that Windlass...but too bad I missed it!!!
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
OK, Julien, et al.: This one just hit the MRL "Deal of the Day" bin for $132! I'm sorely tempted to get one, review it and fix it up, but...must...resist.......too many...projects....

But maybe one of you folks will give it a try.


I never noticed your post Sean...damn! I have to believe I don't spend enough time monitoring this website (just 2 dozen times during an office day on average Happy )

Anyway, even at this price, plus shipping to europe (MLR charged me around 100$ for my towton) and VAT (40)...it would still not be an obvious choice...unless I'm sent to the USA on a business trip. I think I'd rather get a great custom blade made on this side of the atlantic and try hilting it myself (meaning adding another bare blade to my current stock dusting on a shelf for a while Happy )

Anyway Sean, I'll follow your progress closely on this one.

Cheers,

J
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Arrington wrote:
Sean,

Thanks for the Pics ! They were quite interesting to me, because my A&A TG and yours, are twins if you remember. They were manufactured/assembled at the same time. The major differences were that I had my hilt blued, and a custom etched inscription on the blade.

I had intended to have Craig build me a matching dagger, but the quoted price has been prohibitive to my budget the past year or so.

I did however pick up the Windlass Munich dagger in the bargain bin special, sharpened and delivered , for right at $100. Not bad for the cost. My biggest complaints were the stupid drilled holes in the blade near the crossguard, and as you observed, the spherical pommel instead of the more flattened shape of the TG pommel.

I'm planning on bluing the daggers hilt and pommel to match my TG.

Thanks again !


Why haven't we seen photos of that sword, Chris??? Please post if you have some. Also, have you considered bluing the hilt of the dagger?

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chris Arrington





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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll see if I can get some good pictures. Unfortunately, every time I try to get good sword pictures, they come out horrible.

I will say that Craig does a very nice job of getting his hilts blued, and the etching is exactly what i was looking for.

I do plan on bluing the dagger hilt. However, due to it being winter, and me being a baby, I haven't gotten myself out into my unheated workshop to do anything lately.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2011 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Update on the Windlass sword. The pommel is the screw-on type and is pierced only about .75 of its depth. Drilling all the way through and peening, as one normally would do for an upgrade, probably isn't possible unless you want to take a bit of blade to reclaim some space for the grip. The good news is that the pommel isn't screwed down all the way as shipped so all you have to do is shorten the grip and screw down the pommel to get the more correct proportions. Big Grin

The pommel is NOT going to work loose on these things, by the way. I had to clamp it in a vise and use the hilt as a wrench to get it off and still struggled with it. "Tight" ain't the word.

I confirmed that, with simple modifications, the Hanwei-Tinker bastard sword blade should work quite well for a more advanced upgrade. In addition to being thicker than the Windlass blade, and closer to correct in profile, it has enough tang to allow through-drilling and peening of the pommel.

I think the pommel problem detracts a bit from the value of this piece because it virtually prohibits proper (re)construction with the original blade, but it's a virtually invisible problem. The only clue would be the absence of the peened tang on the button (which could easily be simulated, of course). The main technical problem it presents is in aligning the vertical edges of the reshaped pommel when screwing it into place. But, given the extreme difficulty of tightening or loosening this part, I think that once it's in position it isn't going to shift.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Christopher Denby




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: sparring?         Reply with quote

A question for those who own this sword.

Would you consider the blade suitable for sparring? I'm asking in terms of the quality of the blade, it will of course have to be rebated to spec. I've only heard of people cutting with it.
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Gabriele Becattini





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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i have wanted for long a sword like this, but i cannot afford A&A nor a custom one,

in europe there are a few vendors where the sword is available but tipically at a much higher price than U:S

do you think it is worth 300 euros or so?

another option i have considered is getting a john barnett rapier, that can be found at a much lower prive and use the hilt, do you think it can compare favourably with the windlass version?



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2018 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's so much variety in complex hilt arming swords that almost any decently made reproduction will be plausible. 300 seems a little too high for the Windlass sword. I suspect that you could get something better from a European manufacturer for that price or somewhere between that and the Town Guard. Arma Bohemia, maybe?

Another option is to find or commission a hilt you like and fit a Hanwei-Tinker bastard sword blade. That's a robust blade--good for a field sword. Somewhere around here is a photo of the Windlass hilt with the HT blade. I'll try to find that.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are the photos of the Windlass hilt with the unmodified HT bastard sword blade. These swords were just medieval arming swords with complex hilts, so it's no surprise that this combo works so well.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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