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Would you prefer to play computer game that is...
Historical with realistic combat mechanics
51%
 51%  [ 47 ]
Historical with simplified (arcadey) combat mechanics
4%
 4%  [ 4 ]
Fantasy with realistic combat mechanics
36%
 36%  [ 33 ]
Fantasy with simplified (arcadey) combat mechanics
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Some other kind of computer game...
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I don't want to play computer games
6%
 6%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 91

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Gabriele C.




Location: Roma,Italia
Joined: 09 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Looking for Opinions about Fantasy Armor Design         Reply with quote

Walter S wrote:
I'm designing armor/equipment for a fantasy footman - a female monster slayer (somewhat similar to The Witcher/Wiedzmin by A. Sapkowski). Setting is similar to high middle ages. Being fantasy, armor doesn't have to be historically accurate, however it is meant to have believable/historical feel, rather than fantasy feel. So realism is desired as long as it doesn't conflict too much with good looks. Please, tell me what do you think about the design (both its looks and realism).


I hope your heroine is genetical-enhanced like Geralt (i love Sapkowski), because i can't imagine a worst weapon to be wielded by a girl. A zweiahander needs lot of physical strenght and great resistance. Men's stuff.

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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
In fact, Werner posted those images here some time ago. Here are bear hunters (spears/messer sets,) boar hunters (boar swords) and chamois hunters (socketed messer sets/light spears).
ah, my mistake...I had Lange messer type weapons and hunting sabers in mind and I sort of classified those there under Praxen and other hunting knifes. From what I've seen on statues and on Herman Historica those messers there probably have a bowie-like clipped point, btw.


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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Praxen"! There's yet another new term to throw into the mix with "Messer," "Bauernwehr," and "Hauswehr". I can't keep these things sorted properly. You Germans/Austrians and your knives are like Eskimos and snow. Laughing Out Loud

By coincidence, MRL's Deal of the Day is one of these broad German hunting knives: http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-558-hunting-trousse.aspx

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Walter S




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Walter S wrote:
I was already told the character doesn't look enough womanly, so I'm worried about her looking like tin-man (in plate armor) or michelin-man (in padded clothes).


There are plenty of examples of women in armour that still look womenly. Some examples:

Eowyn in Lord of the Rings: http://www.medievalfantasiesco.com/knights/Eowyn_RotK_20.jpg
The girl in the movie "Shroud": http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewto...ght=shroud
Margot in the "girl armour" thread on this forum: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19313
The new Alice in Wonderland: http://www.movieline.com/2009/07/tim-burtons-...rwocky.php


You might notice all the armored girls from movies not only lack helmet (or any head covering), but even have free untied hair. Unless Im mistaken, untied hair is unlikely even for a regular medieval woman.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Concussive blows are not something that has been mentioned much, and is a serious problem when facing something like a bear or lion. A good sized bear (or monster!) can swat like a bus. Plate is best against concussion. Mail, not so good. It's best when being flung around like a ragdoll, too, which movie and TV monsters are particularly fond of doing to the hero.
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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Walter S wrote:

You might notice all the armored girls from movies not only lack helmet (or any head covering), but even have free untied hair. Unless Im mistaken, untied hair is unlikely even for a regular medieval woman.
It is a well-known fact that wearing helmets is a hazard in movies though.
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Walter S




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Werner Stiegler wrote:

It is a well-known fact that wearing helmets is a hazard in movies though.

What kind of hazard are you talking about? I don't quite follow.

Gabriele C wrote:

I hope your heroine is genetical-enhanced like Geralt (i love Sapkowski), because i can't imagine a worst weapon to be wielded by a girl. A zweiahander needs lot of physical strenght and great resistance. Men's stuff.

Yes, she is a half-demon (mostly to explain why it doesn't take a week to heal few scratches in the game), so the size of the sword shouldn't be that much of an issue... however I'm thinking perhaps a smaller two-handed sword like The Dane from Albion might look more appropriate.

While spears are the weapon of choice against real-world beasts, I'm thinking I will stick to a sword for aesthetic reasons.

Werner Stiegler wrote:

People would probably have an easier time identifying that character as female if it was not dressed so sombre and workman-like. You could very well have her show off her expensive stuffed sleeves under a pair of fingerless hourglass gauntlets too.

Hmm, unless I'm mistaken - weren't fancy clothes more late middle ages/renaissance things?

Werner Stiegler wrote:

Another small thing you could use would be a waist belt that actually rides high on the waist instead of the usual "gunslinger" low belts like the one Geralt wears. Those cowboy gunslinger-belts have come to be associated with a certain type of masculinity and I'd say you'd do yourself some service if you'd try to avoid them.

Her belt is already quite high. I think the very low hanging belt like Geralt has looks weird on a man too, btw.
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Christopher VaughnStrever




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not taken the time to read the other replies except a few blupbs here and there...

My personal take on that drawing... Awsome! I like I think the clothing looks great, along with the mix of plate and a slight amount of maile. Even with the lack of armor in some key places; the functionality still aplies. Just as in any situation of a person suited in armor... They learn how to use the armor in their fighting style. If your upper thigh is exposed... don't put your upper leg out there to get hacked off, allow your defense to construct around those types of things.

Yea. I personally love the look and feel aof that drawing. I get a sense of both historical and a fantasy feel.

One last thing is that I have a full suit of armor and I have been tweaking the whole suit since I bought the first piece and even now I am still tweaking and making adjustments. I have a list of things I need to tweak. If you make it for yourself, just remember that through making many adjustments here and there it may not completly and fully function just right. You just have to keep working at it as with everything else.

I hope you the best in your endeavors and would love to see this concept come to life.

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Walter S wrote:
Werner Stiegler wrote:

It is a well-known fact that wearing helmets is a hazard in movies though.

What kind of hazard are you talking about? I don't quite follow.
It's a stupid joke, really. For self-advertizing reasons main actors usually decline to wear anything that would obscure their face and because of dramatic requirements all the secondary actors who can't decline putting that tin hat on die around the main actor. The only conclusion a viewer can draw from that is that wearing helmets kills people in fiction.

Quote:
Hmm, unless I'm mistaken - weren't fancy clothes more late middle ages/renaissance things?
Moreso, yes. High medieval fashion would be about layering different types of cloth, I believe. Really, I'm suggesting it mostly as a nod to modern viewer's sensibility while not hurting the likings of us amateur historians. It's a compromise.

Quote:
Her belt is already quite high.
Can't be high enough, really. It's the main element that'll create a hourglass figure and accent the breasts without looking completely out of place. It sorta works as a stand-in for the usual horribly missused corsett.
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Bryce Felperin




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Concussive blows are not something that has been mentioned much, and is a serious problem when facing something like a bear or lion. A good sized bear (or monster!) can swat like a bus. Plate is best against concussion. Mail, not so good. It's best when being flung around like a ragdoll, too, which movie and TV monsters are particularly fond of doing to the hero.


Something else to consider if I was going into the "wilds" to kill a monster...armor is noisy. Whatever armor you have on, you'll need to tie it down or pad it so it makes no noise. Also the bulkier it is, the harder to move in the brush. Unless the monster comes to you, I'd go light on the armor and depend upon a long reach weapon (spear or polearm) to fight it so can't come close enough to get you. I'd also bring along a lot of friends since even fighting a big cat or bear can death if it gets past your weapon reach or pins you!

Just a couple of thoughts...
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you ask me, I'd go for the very lightly armoured. If were going after monsters here, and we've misplaced our horses, then I'd think that some long-distance trekking would be in order.
and as Bryce has mentioned, armour is noisy. If it's not your maille links, it's your tassets clanging against your cuisses., or your besagues against your spaulders.
To cut down on noise and weight, id try to keep it into as few pieces as possible, that cover the most area. and maille is not fun to run in, even if it's just a coif.

I'd recommend a brig for the body, and ditch the surcoat (a tight brig would give a very womanly figure) and have long pauldrons and single piece copps (simpler and probably more likely to require no maintenance in the field.)
It's what i plan on getting for my eventual late 15th cent kit. It's a very distinctive, but historical look. add vambraces and you have a full arm harness.
I'd have the brig long, almost to the knees (in a split skirt of course) and some Mid eastern style greaves w/ the attached knee piece that resembles ancient Greek greaves.
Add a sallet, (the sexiest of helms) and a maille standard (subtle neck protection) and you have almost full armour thats light and is for the mostpart NOT clanking.

As for weapons, I'd actually reccomend a pollaxe. some examples are only about 5-6 ft. (managable, but still got range) and can be beautifully decorated, and would separate your girl from the slew of metal bikini-clad zweihander imitation wielders out there. as for a backup, id go w/ longsword (it's just a sexy weapon) and a messer (never know when it's time for some serious chopping). and of course the dagger. rondel. (think monster brain spiker.



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small pauldron thumb.jpg
long pauldrons (they come to the elbow.)

 Attachment: 79.43 KB
Early 16th Century Copp.jpg
one piece copp.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Nathan Johnson




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Hmm, unless I'm mistaken - weren't fancy clothes more late middle ages/renaissance things?

Yes but so were zweihanders. earlier two handers pre 1520 just look like really big longswords with no parrying hooks lugs ect.
I own many pole arms and at 8ft none are even vaguely combersom, in fact they are the most superior wepons I own, lightnig fast and hit like a freight train, real polearms like gaives,partisans evan simple spears often handle as colse as a weapon can in real life to a moive "katana" or evan a lightsaber Big Grin speed and damage wise.
used in the period manner there is NO disadvantage at close range, by you self or even when someone is trying to grapple you, during training I haves seen four "swordsman" inc one two hander try to take on a singel halberdier with humorous results

games and books drew me to the study of weapons but as I have learnt more over the years one of the things that has come to bug me the most while playing games is the universal boots, bracers, torso combo.

armour on the upper arm or leg only occur rarely at high LvL as meaningless graphics attached to torso armour
People always think everyone in the past was running around in big boots and big gloves so armour is therefor depicted as consisting of big "metal" boots and big "metal" gloves
The thing is ,medieval solid plate appears historically on the elbows and knees first then quickly covers the upper arms and upper legs and stays that way, if wearing any armour on the limbs at all it always covers the upper part because this is where the main artiries are!
getting hit in the hand or shin may cripple but pierce the upper part of the limbs and you bleed to death in two minutes
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Nathan Johnson




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

there are some exceptions to what I just posted of corse: 14thC greaves and knees but this is before full plate, Knees worn alone by infantry and greaves worn alone in Italy in the late 15thC

If you want armour to look feminine just use gothic armour, people are so used to seeing armour that looks like American football padding they always think the hourglass shape of the torso is made for girls anyway,
If you want armour with only some bits of plate and a surcoat go with a 14thC design
try looking at pictures of late burgundian soldiers for a good mix of brigandine and plate as others have suggested.
most of it will look feminine to modern eyes as is Wink
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Apr, 2010 10:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Werner Stiegler wrote:
It's a stupid joke, really. For self-advertizing reasons main actors usually decline to wear anything that would obscure their face and because of dramatic requirements all the secondary actors who can't decline putting that tin hat on die around the main actor. The only conclusion a viewer can draw from that is that wearing helmets kills people in fiction.

Actually if we use Hollywood reality then there is no point wearing armour at all, since weapons seem to penetrate it with ease

All the best dragon slaying stories have the hero wearing spiked armour: Sir Peter Loschy and the Worm of Loschy Mill, Sir John Lambton and the Lambton Worm, Lord More and the Dragon of Wantley, etc. It makes sense against large beasts who want to bite or crush you.
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 1:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Walter S"]
Sander Marechal wrote:
You might notice all the armored girls from movies not only lack helmet (or any head covering), but even have free untied hair. Unless Im mistaken, untied hair is unlikely even for a regular medieval woman.


Not quite. In "Lord of the Rings" you can see Eowyn going into battle with braided hair and wearing a helmet. It still looks good IMHO.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Sander Marechal"]
Walter S wrote:
Sander Marechal wrote:
You might notice all the armored girls from movies not only lack helmet (or any head covering), but even have free untied hair. Unless Im mistaken, untied hair is unlikely even for a regular medieval woman.


Not quite. In "Lord of the Rings" you can see Eowyn going into battle with braided hair and wearing a helmet. It still looks good IMHO.


I think they only gave her a helmet and braided hair because she didn't want to be recognized by Theoden.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

She was undercover as Dernhelm. As soon as her helmet comes off and her hair flows free, the witchking suddenly forgets how to fight and gets stabbed in the face. Hollywood reality has rules with predictable results Happy
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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hollywood and the Middle East agree: Women's hair has witching powers.
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Eric Allen




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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 5:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For fantasy armor, I think the outfit depicted in the drawing looks fine, and even a step above most of the fantasy fare out there.

But as for the concept:
If I were a hunter (of monsters or anything else), I would consider having to rely on my armor and/or weapon to save my life means something went horribly, horribly wrong. If I am going to be a successful hunter, I'm not going to be getting into a climatic clash with my mark. I'm going to use everything else at my disposal--traps, misdirection, bait, pointy sticks, and my intimate knowledge of the critter's behavior to stack the deck so heavily in my favor, the killing stroke is more of an execution than a fight. I'm going to rely on my brains, not my brawn.
Think about it this way: does a deer hunter go out and wrestle a deer to the ground? No, they stalk it, lure it, and ambush it with the intent of dispatching it quickly and without fuss. Same goes for more dangerous animals. Boar are famous fighters, but if I let it get close enough to do harm to me, it means I screwed up.
Remember that, throughout our history, humans have successfully hunted even dangerous animals like bears and lions with nothing but a spear.

Armor, in that case, is superfluous. If I do my job right, I shouldn't even need it. If I do wear it, I'm going to want something lightweight, low maintenance, suitably durable, and comfortable enough for trekking long distances in the brush in. I'd say a quilted gambeson (or aketon or whatever you want to call it) and maybe some gauntlets. Or even just a sturdy leather vest or apron if I'm not worried about concussive blows. If the monster I'm fighting requires certain precautions (e.g. spits venom, hides under rocks and like to bite ankles, shoot eye-lasers), then I'll add those protections on an as-need basis.
Ultimately, my kit would consist of camping and expedition gear, my monster-dispatcher (e.g. a boar spear), a utilitarian blade like a messer or hatchet, and a variety of smaller knives and tools, as well as any pre-made traps, nets, or mechanisms I might need. And, depending, on the creature, maybe a shield.
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Walter S




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Apr, 2010 12:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Werner Stiegler wrote:
It's a stupid joke, really. For self-advertizing reasons main actors usually decline to wear anything that would obscure their face and because of dramatic requirements all the secondary actors who can't decline putting that tin hat on die around the main actor. The only conclusion a viewer can draw from that is that wearing helmets kills people in fiction.


I was suspecting you mean that, but I thought there might be some kind of real hazard I didn't know about.

Nathan Johnson wrote:

games and books drew me to the study of weapons but as I have learnt more over the years one of the things that has come to bug me the most while playing games is the universal boots, bracers, torso combo.

armour on the upper arm or leg only occur rarely at high LvL as meaningless graphics attached to torso armour
People always think everyone in the past was running around in big boots and big gloves so armour is therefor depicted as consisting of big "metal" boots and big "metal" gloves
The thing is ,medieval solid plate appears historically on the elbows and knees first then quickly covers the upper arms and upper legs and stays that way, if wearing any armour on the limbs at all it always covers the upper part because this is where the main artiries are!
getting hit in the hand or shin may cripple but pierce the upper part of the limbs and you bleed to death in two minutes


That is a very good point I didn't really consider in the design. As I am attempting realism, this really bugs me, so revised version will probably be rearranged for greater protection of upper parts of limbs.

Eric Allen wrote:
If I were a hunter (of monsters or anything else), I would consider having to rely on my armor and/or weapon to save my life means something went horribly, horribly wrong. If I am going to be a successful hunter, I'm not going to be getting into a climatic clash with my mark. I'm going to use everything else at my disposal--traps, misdirection, bait, pointy sticks, and my intimate knowledge of the critter's behavior to stack the deck so heavily in my favor, the killing stroke is more of an execution than a fight. I'm going to rely on my brains, not my brawn.
Think about it this way: does a deer hunter go out and wrestle a deer to the ground? No, they stalk it, lure it, and ambush it with the intent of dispatching it quickly and without fuss. Same goes for more dangerous animals. Boar are famous fighters, but if I let it get close enough to do harm to me, it means I screwed up.
Remember that, throughout our history, humans have successfully hunted even dangerous animals like bears and lions with nothing but a spear.


This makes sense, however its pretty well-established that heroic characters fight the animals rather than hunt them. Hercules wrestles some legendary lion in one of his labours, King Ashurbanipal kills a lion with a spear from a charging horse cavalry-style, Saint George fights the dragon in plate armor from horseback.
The game is meant to be action-oriented, not medieval version of Deer Hunter - that would make most players fall asleep ;-)


Last edited by Walter S on Wed 28 Apr, 2010 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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