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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Tue 13 Apr, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Elling Polden wrote: | These seem to be using the a simple "golf club" grip, for the sole purpose of hitting harder. |
Hitting harder and/or compensating for fatigue, being able to recover faster from a miss or a faster second or third blow.
Actual longsword techniques would be harder to do with a too short grip but many still doable I think: If the later longsword techniques where known is a different question ? Someone familiar with them, later in period, might be able to use the techniques he knows for longsword when armed with a single hander. In an earlier period where these techniques would be unknown or just beginning to be developed the main reasons of harder blows etc .... above might be more probable.
There is also short handle and very short handle: A 6" handle with a large disk pommel can be used two handed fairly easily but without the leverage advantages of the longer longsword handle as for work in the bind.
But even the very very short Viking swords could be used with a golf like grip twohanded.
I know that with my RavenWolf sword the very large brazil nut/tea cosy pommel can be gripped by one hand with the handle gripped by the other. If one fingers the guard it gives and extra inch or so of room for the off hand.
http://www.ollinsworddesign.com/osd-custom-RW.html
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ed Toton
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Posted: Tue 13 Apr, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Marko Susimetsa wrote: |
If only someone with "The Baron" or other options could give further insight into their 1-handed wielding performance...(?) |
I own one:
I'd say this one would be rather unwieldy for any sort of extended one-handed use, with the exception of cleaving blows from horseback. Any sort of motions that involve needing to rapidly stop or redirect the direction of the blade, as you might do while fighting with sword and buckler for instance, I think would be rather stressful on the arm. The sword does weigh nearly four pounds, and has a significant blade presence. Used in a two-handed fashion, the weight isn't nearly as noticeable and it feels like it performs more similarly to other longsword examples. But single-handed, it's one of the heaviest in feel, I think.
It has excellent cutting geometry, and I've found it cuts through a variety of targets quite well, so my feeling is that its design would allow for good strong cuts, even with one hand, so long as you don't need to rapidly change direction.
-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
My armor photos on facebook
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Tue 13 Apr, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Ed Toton wrote: | [ even with one hand, so long as you don't need to rapidly change direction. |
Arm strength does make a difference so I would say that one might manage a quick change of direction or a sudden stop of the blade if one has practised doing sudden stops i.e. it is possible one or twice but not for any extended amount of time, so using one hand for a blow or two and then getting the off hand back on the handle for recovery would also be an option.
One exercise I do as a warmup before training sessions it to use a 6" staff and hold it at it's extreme end with one hand, swing it down as fast as I can in a vertical Oberhau and stop suddenly it at the horizontal: This wouldn't work if one was swinging and deciding at the last second to stop but if one has pre-programmed ones swing to stop horizontally it works.
Very good to develop control and to strengthen one's grip and forearm.
Oh, doing the sloping step and halting the sword at the same time that one's foot hits the ground hard helps in braking the action of the arm.
Anyway, after this warm up most swords seem feather light right after.
Sort of reminds me of the Roman practice of using double weight wooden training swords and shields so that when using the real weapons they will feel light.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ed Toton
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Posted: Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I agree, the level of physical conditioning and the particular motions you intend to use will make a huge difference. But let's just say I really wouldn't want to do successive single-handed zwerchau's with the Baron.
-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
My armor photos on facebook
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Ed Toton wrote: | Oh, I agree, the level of physical conditioning and the particular motions you intend to use will make a huge difference. But let's just say I really wouldn't want to do successive single-handed zwerchau's with the Baron. |
Agreed one, maybe two, three zwerchaus would really be pushing it, and one handed it would be much easier for the opponent to deflect or control your weak.
Totally not a good idea for an extended fight.
I guess if one also used a shield, not ideal use of a heavy war sword, one could probably use it one handed but this is mostly impractical hair splitting.
Shield and Baron from horseback: Now that is possibly useful.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Paul Watson
Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 395
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Posted: Tue 13 Apr, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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With a sword like the Baron being used on horseback is there evidence that they ever slipped the grip so the single hand on it was near the pommel to extend the reach and possibly the cutting power as the POB would effectively be further from the hand weilding it?
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Luka Borscak
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Posted: Tue 13 Apr, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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There is a guy on Bayeux tapestry who uses single hander holding it close to the pommel so that you can see a piece of grrip between his hand and the cross.
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Elling Polden
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Posted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Back in the days when i fought with my old 1.4kg, 83cm long Lutel singlehander, I developed a techniqiue to improve recovery of long, heavy blades.
Instead of stopping and "re-cocking" the blade, which is slow, ineffective, and guaranteed to get you killed, you instead redirect the energy into a "tip twirl."
Essentially, you throw the tip forward in the "fishing rod" fashion. When the tip reaches its full extention, it will "dip", and your hand and wrist will lift. You can now use this energy to twirl the sword around its tip, and make another strike, typically in a left-right/right-left type feint. Alternately, you can simply twirl back into your guard.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Sa'ar Nudel
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Posted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Paul Watson wrote: | With a sword like the Baron being used on horseback is there evidence that they ever slipped the grip so the single hand on it was near the pommel to extend the reach and possibly the cutting power as the POB would effectively be further from the hand weilding it? |
I think this is what the Great Sword is all about. A step between the single hand sword and the long sword, giving the 13th century horseman more potencial energy and reach.
In my fighting group (which is not all historic), when fighting with a long sword, we go for a single hand blow always with the hand next to the pommel. This automatically extends the range (even more additional range can be achieved when switching stances) and when being done properly - the cut is accurate and severe. Retrieval, though, is difficult and needs a lot of practice.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Jason Rogers
Location: Forever changing Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted: Thu 15 Apr, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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There is a type XIIIa studied in some detail by Oakschott in 'Records of the Medieval Sword' which HE dates quite firmly between 1120-1150 giving what I believe to be almost a starting point for swords dedicated to being used with either one hand or both. I had a replica made using the measurements I was able to get from Museum fur Deutsche Geschichte Berlin (though it is re-enactment blunt so it isn't a perfect replica) and use it to fight with competitively. It's an absolute killer. Used one handed with a shield or even two handed it requires a real effort to stop it from doing serious damage.
Something that I've noticed about many replica's of type XIII swords is that they tend to narrow into a point far more than many originals which are almost parallel edged and have a very short tip. Having swung it from horseback once it is so obviously a weapon that was capable of horrendous wounds to anyone not wearing a coat of plates and well made, tempered steel helm as weight is far forward. In cutting test done by Mike Loades with a similiar example it compared very closely with a later medieval falchion. I've been led to understand that it may be a weapon that spread out of Germany and was something of a regional speciality which might explain why they begin to turn up in English art and records (particulary in wills) around 1200 (perhaps after being brought back by Richards cronies after his imprisonment?) and then only gradually into France from after that.
“Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech” -Shakespear
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