Not quite what you are looking for but I had to share the pic...
Thats a great pic. Stirs all sorts of things.
I love that it has a Hospitaller in the center. One of our group members is building a Templar kit at the co-inciding with my hospitaller. I 'll have to show him this pic, almost like its saying 1 Hospitaller is worth 7 Templars. **snigger**
Ted
I love that it has a Hospitaller in the center. One of our group members is building a Templar kit at the co-inciding with my hospitaller. I 'll have to show him this pic, almost like its saying 1 Hospitaller is worth 7 Templars. **snigger**
Ted
I think knights of the orders were not suppose to wear their own arms. Not that they always did what they were suppose to. Also, it doesn't seem that every one used arms in battle, but that some did. The uniforms did change, but they were uniform and as the individual knights were technically poor, they would have been issued gear and therefore very uniform for the time. additionally the cross most associated with the Templars is the cross pattee, which is not quite the Maltese cross.
| Ted Wells wrote: |
| Working on Acre at 1291 and the red surcoat from 1275 as well as the length of the surcoat and armour from then. All of the plate armour and shorter surcoats that I have found are more toward the end of the 14th C (1380cc). |
What decade are you aiming at then? I'd especially look at the helmet. If you look at the Maciejowski bible (~1250), even they depict fully closed great helmets. The flat-topped helmets with just the face plate like you depict are from even before then I believe. If you're early 14th century I'd go with a visorless Bascinet with maille coif/ventail and one of those big triangular detachable nasals.
This is the best crusader picture I ever saw. Really, magnificent. If I could I would buy a big poster image of this picture. Do you have more pictures like this?
| Phil D. wrote: |
| Not quite what you are looking for but I had to share the pic... |
I want to echo the sentiment Sander is mentioning about outdated arms. The pot helmet in your mock up, specifically, would no way still be in use even in the late 13th century. It would have been outdated at least 75 years by then. Men with military careers would have worked hard to keep up with the latest technological trends. By the early-mid 14th century you would most likely be wearing a cervellie or bascinet with a visor, or a helm over the top of either.
-Gregory
-Gregory
| Sander Marechal wrote: |
|
[ Linked Image ] |
| Gregory J.Liebau wrote: |
|
The pot helmet in your mock up, specifically, would no way still be in use even in the late 13th century. |
Gregory, I would love to see some of the sources you draw from for that opinion, everything I have found in texts and illuminations shows me that this helm is late 13th C??? Even one posted earlier, (my first quote) on this very thread??????
Ted
| Ted Wells wrote: |
|
Gregory, I would love to see some of the sources you draw from for that opinion, everything I have found in texts and illuminations shows me that this helm is late 13th C??? Even one posted earlier, (my first quote) on this very thread?????? Ted |
Ted,
First, c. 1250, when the image is dated, is not late 13th century, it's mid-13th and that's a big difference in this era. Second, the helm dated by its image to circa 1250 is still a more evolved helm than what your mock-up shows. Your helm seems to show a faceplate attached to a pot helm (perhaps with an extension in the back that begins to cover the back of the neck), while the 1250 image shows a faceplate attached to a pot helm that is beginning to expand downwards to cover more of the wearer's head. The helm from the c. 1250 image is more evolved and therefore later than your helm. By the late 13th century, we have fully encompassing great helms. The helm you posted in your kit mockup was being phased out in the first half of the 13th century at the latest.
Please read our feature article on great helms for further explanation, bibliography, and images. See the images below from that article.
Circa 1207, Helms with facemasks and neck extensions:
[ Linked Image ]
Early 13th century, helms with facemasks that are beginning to extend around and cover more of the head/neck.
[ Linked Image ]
Mid 13th century, helm with facemask that has extended down and around the head, but not far enough to be a true great helm.
[ Linked Image ]
Your helm, with its facemask and perhaps neck protection, is an earlier evolutionary phase. If it has a neck plate, it would date similarly to the first image I posted from around 1207.
Thanks Chad,
That is helpful rather than critcal. Agree that I did error in the mid/late 13C, but I was leaving much to interpretation with these pics as they seem rather nominal in their detail.
I appreciate the information and sources and seeming to help rather than deride.
Cheers
Ted
That is helpful rather than critcal. Agree that I did error in the mid/late 13C, but I was leaving much to interpretation with these pics as they seem rather nominal in their detail.
I appreciate the information and sources and seeming to help rather than deride.
Cheers
Ted
To revive this thread, I offer a miniature from Cambridge MS Mm.5.31, Expositio in Apocalypsim, Alexander of Bremen, 1249-1250, fo139r: Baldwin of Flanders and Godfrey of Bouillon, army of Hospitalers, Templars, and Teutonic Knights Of note is the Latin inscription describing these as Hospitallers, Templars, and Teutonic Knights. The red-surcoat figure might be Godfrey with the arms of Jerusalem in a distorted color scheme.
http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-MM-00005-00031/281
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http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-MM-00005-00031/281
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