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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, I got a friend of mine to do a foto shooting while reenacting, so I can show you now, how I fastened the ventail. I described it in one of my recent posts. It's quite easy with the leatherstrap running around your head. You just make
a loop, put it under the leatherstrap and fasten it with a knot. If you pull strong enaught at the ventail, the loop gives in and it comes lose. It's like a quickrelease button. Wink

So now to the pictures. I have two padded caps, well in fact only one is really thick padded. I use the thicker one without the helmet, the thinner one, if I go with helmet. It's a matter of thickness and available helmet-space, you know.

You can also alternate the fixing points for a more comfortable wearing - as shown in the pictures. I found out, that it's much more comfortable to wear it less tight. If you wear it too tight, you'll get problems to breathe and speak. Also I advice to knot it in a way, that there is not too much of the ventail-strap left, so it won't be cut through during combat.

@Elling: Do you have any notes on how such a standing collar could be constructed? That is one of the items, I plan to add to my kit soon. But I don't have a clue how to make it. My first idea was to get a wide strap of thick leather and padd it on the inside with 2 -3 cm wool and linen. Then add some sort of knobs on the outside and dye it with leather dye (as seen in the Morgan Bible). What do you think?

Nevertheless, I hope my pictures can be of assistence,

Yours, Thomas



 Attachment: 78.66 KB
coif and helmet.jpg
In this picture, I used a thinner woolen cap with helmet.

 Attachment: 85.08 KB
coif and padded cap.jpg
The coif with the thick padded cap.

 Attachment: 97.31 KB
coif from side 2.jpg
The coif from the side, with ventail, fastened by a loop.

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Chris Gilman




Location: California
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would be willing to bet money these were lined. I have an aventail I lined with linen and stitched the mail to it, it looks just like the illustrations. I also have mail chauces I have stitched to a fabric/ leather foundation and these too, behave like the illustrations. Tailoring is another important step. None of the "off the shelf" coifs I have seen are tailored correctly or/ at all.
Chris
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Chris Gilman




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I realized I had a couple of photos of what I'm referring to.
Here is the aventail, tailored and attched to a liner:




Here is an untailored / unlined coif (to get tailored) under a CerveliŤre, to go under my sugerloaf. Notice how "limp" and without substance it looks when compaired with the one above.


and here are the chauces (work in progress) mounted to a leather boot to just below the knee and linen padded hose from the boot up. The mail is heavily tailored and sewn to the leather and linen. I made the turn shoe with a "rand/ welt to sew the mail to around the sole. The laced up front is covered with the shininbald.



to show how this will work with the rest of the leg defenses, here is an early mock up of the leg armor. (The cuisse is incised leather and the gold "trim" is pressed formed leather.)


All for my 1340's kit.
Sorry, not trying to highjack the thread, but I think the biggest problem with modern mail recreations and a complete lack of tailoring and I think most mail was lined and my experiment with these two things seem to result in mail that resembles period illustration more so than the other mail I have seen..

Chris
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris,

I agree 100%. I noticed something similar back in 2004 when working on a harness that I was trying to make more period in design. At the time I used a padding cap under my mail coif. I could not get the right look for it below the helmet without the padded liner or hood. I figure that is what those ties are for on some effigies, attaching the liner to the aventail.

And very nice pictures as usual. Your shop has got to be one of the most awesome places in the world for an armour and arms enthusiast!

RPM
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you both for your pictures. Thomas, your aventail looks great and the attachment of the ventail looks strikingly similar to the pictures posted in on the first page.

Chris, that's some awesome armour. I've seen it before on the Armour Archive. It's brilliant. I have a question about your linen lined coif though. Is the linen liner padded or just a single layer of linen? And do you still wear a separate padded linen coif beneath it?
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I don't think 13th century and earlier maille/hauberks were sewn to any larger piece of linen.

First of all the hauberk was made of one single piece: coif and mittens attached. A sewn in cloth like a tunic or a cotte would have made a propper maintenance nearly impossible. The easiest way to clean a rusty maille would have been to throw it into a saddle bag and add some sand... Now imagine a tunic involved in this process... Furthermore such a maille would stay a lot longer wet in bad weather. The maille would immediately begin to rust.

Second: the illuminations show people wearing a linen cap. It would not have been necessary if the coif itself had a hood sewn into it. Depictions of thrown back coifs show no signs of any sewn hood. (Well the illuminators were no photographers, so this may not count).

In my opinion the illuminations e.g. in the Morgan Bible show us, how the hauberk was worn quite clearly. The men wore beneath it a thin, padded aketon with sewn on hands and a linen cap, Onto this they put the hauberk, enclosing the whole upper body. Then came a second layer aketon without arms and a padded collar around the neck. Knights depicted without this collar may have worn it beneath the maille. There is almost everytime a bulge under the chin to be seen. At last would have come the helmet. Depending on which armor was available, these pieces may have been interchangeable, so that some footsoldiers would have only worn the two layers ot aketons (gambesons) without any maille at all.

I do agree, that the maille should have been very well tailored. And the attempt to recreate the mailclad boots does look really interesting and quite plausible.

Thomas

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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The most common separate coif I seem to have seen is the ones with a square drape/collar bit. If I can find a picture as an example I'll post that so you know what I meant. But yeah, I've always preferred that over the round edged ones.
With regards to lining; whilst one may have an arming cap for a coif that is integrated into the hauberk (lining the whole thing seems unnecessary after all), for a separate coif I'd imagine that it'd just make it more comfortable and mean that you wouldn't have to use an arming cap, thus saving on hassle.
For neck protection underneath/over the coif, I think I've seen a statue (on that website that has all those awesome tombs and effigies) where the guy has what appears to be a rigid collar around his neck that laces up at the side. I'd imagine it would soften bows to the neck and, more importantly, if he fell off it would stop his neck compressing.
What I'd like to know is has anyone ever made a reproduction of one of those coifs with the padded ring(?) for the helm on the inside? Y'know, the ones that make them look as though they have square or cylindrical heads.
That's just my AUS$00.02.

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 9:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The collars are as noted quite common. They seem to come in two varieties; one of which is simply a standing collar on the arming tunic, while the other seems to be a thicker, separate collar, worn without or on top of a mail coif in the same way as the gambesons;

Probably a arming tunic collar


A collar on top of mail, from Life of Edward the confessor;



Mine is a standing collar that buttons in the front. It is fitted to cover the neck, since my great helm is chin length. The result is a taller collar than those typically shown, but it gives good decent protection, combined with the coif.

Since buttons seems to have been introduced sometime in the mid 13th c, earlier designs would probably use laces or buckles.



 Attachment: 32.75 KB
Coifdown.jpg


"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
With regards to lining; whilst one may have an arming cap for a coif that is integrated into the hauberk (lining the whole thing seems unnecessary after all), for a separate coif I'd imagine that it'd just make it more comfortable and mean that you wouldn't have to use an arming cap, thus saving on hassle.


True, but I wonder how well it would work in practice. If the mail coif lining is unpadded (just a single layer of linen) then how well would you be protected? And if the lining is padded, then how would you move your head?

As for collars, my gambeson has a standing collar so I won't be needing a separate collar. I'll probably get a coif with a round bottom instead of a square one. I like the square ones, but it seems to me that those weren't used much in later periods. I'm hoping that by using a round lower edge I can be more multi-period.
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, Sander, can you post a picture of your standing collar? And Elling: Your collar is quite difficult to see at all. I'd be really interested in the construction of your collar.

The question of rounded or square bottoms at coifs seems to be - at least at the end of 13th/ beginning of the 14th century - a question of origin. I recall, that I read once, that french and english knights wore the round bottum, while in german territorities the square one was favoured. If you like, I can do some research on this topic.

Thomas

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R. wrote:
So, Sander, can you post a picture of your standing collar?


I don't have any clear pictures of it (yet), but my gambeson is from Matuls. Currently I own this type of gambeson, but I will be getting this type, with a larger collar as well.
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Chris Gilman




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 5:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Thank you both for your pictures. Thomas, your aventail looks great and the attachment of the ventail looks strikingly similar to the pictures posted in on the first page.

Chris, that's some awesome armour. I've seen it before on the Armour Archive. It's brilliant. I have a question about your linen lined coif though. Is the linen liner padded or just a single layer of linen? And do you still wear a separate padded linen coif beneath it?


The coif has no lining as yet. The aventail(perhaps what you meant) has a slightly padded liner consisting of 2 layers of linen and one layer of cotton badding.
As for earlier mail not being lined because of cleaning issues. I have heard this argument all the time and a completely disagree. I have (in my rental stock) many arming coats (20+) with mail attached and they are not a maintenance problem at all. The mail does not get terribly rusty and secondly, if you could afford mail, Iím sure you could afford to have someone maintain it for you. It takes little time to remove the sewn in liner and clean both and reattach them. I am not saying all mail was lined, but I donít agree it wasnít because of rust & maintenance.

Chris
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Gilman wrote:


and here are the chauces (work in progress) mounted to a leather boot to just below the knee and linen padded hose from the boot up. The mail is heavily tailored and sewn to the leather and linen. I made the turn shoe with a "rand/ welt to sew the mail to around the sole. The laced up front is covered with the shininbald.


to show how this will work with the rest of the leg defenses, here is an early mock up of the leg armor. (The cuisse is incised leather and the gold "trim" is pressed formed leather.)


All for my 1340's kit.
Sorry, not trying to highjack the thread, but I think the biggest problem with modern mail recreations and a complete lack of tailoring and I think most mail was lined and my experiment with these two things seem to result in mail that resembles period illustration more so than the other mail I have seen..


Once again let me offer my compliments to your research, vision and dedication to this project. Your work is remarkable in its detail. I know your career is creating "impossible" projects from sketches and illustrations but still... wow. Cool
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Gilman wrote:
I have heard this argument all the time and a completely disagree. I have (in my rental stock) many arming coats (20+) with mail attached and they are not a maintenance problem at all. The mail does not get terribly rusty and secondly, if you could afford mail, Iím sure you could afford to have someone maintain it for you. It takes little time to remove the sewn in liner and clean both and reattach them. I am not saying all mail was lined, but I donít agree it wasnít because of rust & maintenance.


Perhaps the linen wasn't sewn to it, but attached by straps like later armor has been fixed on padded jacks? Would be more reasonable than sewing it. Well, but this will be speculative, as long as we don't find any surviving hauberks.

No offence meant,
Thomas

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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay, everyone, I'm no expert here but would like to make an observation from a practical point of view. Looking at the overall construction of the coif and the position of the ties. here is a suggestion as to their function. Note that of several of the illistrations shown in this thread, the bottom of the opening covers the mouth up to the nose. Pretty disfunctional if you want a sip of water on a hot day! Perhaps the funtion of the laces was to tighten up the coif over the mouth but allow for it to be loosened so that one could eat of drink without having to take off armor, especially if the coif was worn under another piece such as a gorget. I know the coif could be pulled back, but could you really have such a close fit over the mouth and still pull it back over the crown of the head? Just a thought, but practicality often trumps design, especially in an illustration. (Commence to throw tomatoes now!)
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom,

It could also be personal preference, regional or cultural tastes, etc. whether one had a padded liner or padded under garment. There is no reason both could not have been used at the same time (not by the same person per se).

RPM
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Thom R.




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I interrupt this program to make a brief announcement

Thomas R. and myself are two different people ( I did not change my avatar).

Please do not send me PMs regarding posts by Thomas R. WTF?!

thank you and I return you to your regularly scheduled debate on historical mail Big Grin


PS jazerant was definitely in use in western Europe. We have written references for it. I don't understand why anyone could claim that mail was not sewn to cloth or into clothing at times during the high medieval period. We know that it was done.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R. wrote:

First of all the hauberk was made of one single piece: coif and mittens attached.


Aren't there illustrations of separate coifs in the 13th century? I thought the Maciejowski Bible had some and other sources do as well, if I'm not mistaken. Ditto with mittens.

I think it may be safe to say that the integrated/all-in-one seems to be the norm based on period art, but I don't think it's safe to imply (much less state) that they all were. Happy

Happy

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Aren't there illustrations of separate coifs in the 13th century? I thought the Maciejowski Bible had some and other sources do as well, if I'm not mistaken. Ditto with mittens.


There's an interesting image from the Codex Manesse. See the attachment to this post. It shows a soldier with a gambeson wearing a separate coif and maille gauntlets. No hauberk.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 6:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:

There's an interesting image from the Codex Manesse. See the attachment to this post. It shows a soldier with a gambeson wearing a separate coif and maille gauntlets. No hauberk.


The Manesse Codex is 14th century, when separate pieces seems to have been more common. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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