OUTSTANDING Kirk! I believe this is one of the most informative threads I have read.I am glad to see (finally) some one illustrating the developmental similarities in "Celtic" and "Roman" swords.I have always had a problem with the commonly accepted view of Iron age sword hilts being purely "Celtic" or purely "Roman".When discussing later period European swords...MIgration, "viking", medieval, etc. there are rarely what one could call "ethnic specific" swords.Some sword/hilt types or decoration can be assigned to different areas ,the Norwegian longsax for example,but as a general rule swords and their fittings were same all over NW Europe after circa 500 A.D.How can 2 culture's ,(Celtic and Roman) fight, trade, etc for 500 years and not influence each other dramaticly.The classic image of the Wild celt with his typical LaTene long sword and the Roman legionare with his pompei/mainz gladius probably never existed at the same time.Sure the Gauls (not nec. the Brits) used longer swords in the First century b.c., but the Roman swords of that period used longer swords as well,( I believe Blades from this period reached upwards of 28").I am sure the hilt designs were'nt all that different.When the Romans had adopted the shorter swords(???)The Gauls were still using the "celtic" longsword...the spatha, in the service of Rome.Another question,why do we have no trouble accepting that it was common for "Germanic" warriors of a slightly later period to use Roman swords(bogg finds), but "Celts"of the LaTene did not?Your work shows a simple , clear , line of development of {European} swords of the period.
| James King wrote: |
| I have a problem with the commonly accepted view of Iron age sword hilts being purely "Celtic" or purely "Roman" I am sure the hilt designs were'nt all that different. |
Hi James,
Well, I must both agree and disagree.
If it were simply a matter of utility and basic aesthetics, perhaps the evidence would show "Roman" styles far back into Halstatt and La Tene I.
BUT, I think that there is a longstanding, talismanic significance to the Celtic hilt forms that was actually remarkably resistant to change, which can also be seen in the lineup above (not actually a direct timeline)
You do see a trending toward what we think of as a Roman hilt design in the later La Tene---large ovate pommel and straight shouldered guard. Also true that we have the Celts wielding both shorter and longer swords, and newer evidence shows that the Romans were using some fairly long swords in the Republican period...
However, the hilt design of the Celtic sword has a very, very strong connection to a stylized human-like form, sometimes more overt, other times less so. The timeline above illustrates this better than anything else! You have a period of over a thousand years where the Celtic sword shows a very strong tendency toward a stylized human form with either trilobate or bilobate pommel for 800 years or so----the hilt maintaining this symbolism even as the blade shape, style and length changes rather dramatically.
Only in the very later stages are we seeing a globular pommel, and even then, as in the Thorpe, Worton, and Caerlon swords, the stylized bilobate /trilobate symbolism is carried onto and carved into the "Roman" pommel and guard forms. If it were simply a matter of aethetics or practicality, I could see a more even adoption of the less stylized pommel forms. Yet, when we see this appear, as in the Cotterdale and Hod Hill swords, it is in the final stages of La Tene, a time when Roma is actively annihilating the cultural and religious trappings of "Celtic" society (i.e., the destruction of the druid college at Anglesey, etc.....)
The stylized form of the Celtic sword carries across the vast majority of the Halstatt and L:a tene timelines and across countries and geographic boundaries. Even in the last gasps of La Tene, during the Empire's height, we see the Celts doggedly holding onto the bilobate and trilobate forms for their swords. Given the very high incidence of stylized human forms recurring throughout Halstat and La Tene and cutting across boundaries in the material culture, from harness trappings to fibulae and pendants to carvings on frescoes....I seriously doubt that the anthropomorphic hilt symbolism would be lightly dropped or amalgamated into a cultural blending of styles.
Looking at the above photos, one can see the opposite, and the double lobed and triple-lobed motif cotinues virtually to the end of La Tene.
In short, when I see portrayals of Celts with Hod Hill style hiltwork, in a middle La Tene setting, I find this to be perhaps a misintepretation of the evidence and a misunderstanding of what the Celts were doing with those bilobate styles. So I think that when Osprey gives a Gallic warrior in Hannibal's service a Hod Hill sword, I think they are going off-base with their suppositions.
Exellent post Nate. I stand corrected .After rereading my post I believe I was a bit unclear.I agree totaly that "Roman" style hilts like the one from Hod Hill,Cotterdale, etc. are later LaTene IV, and may have been Roman manufactured.I believe (and should have made more clear)that many earlier Roman Hilts Looked more "celtic" i.e. sloped shoulders on many Republican blades,and Sculptural depictions(looking for sources)of trilobate pomels on Roman swords.IMHO early republican blades may have been more similar to LeTene I blades, than is often illustrated(one exeption is very small illustration in Connolly's Greece and Rome at war p.134 that shows a Roman surveyor armed with a sword with a Latene hilt).When did the "Roman" type hilt with spheroid pommel ,fluted grip,and straight guard develope?200b.c.?100b.c.?50b.c.?It appears that the "Roman" type hilt of the Later Republic/early empire is merely a simplified LaTene type hilt....what else could it have developed from?
| James King wrote: |
| Exellent post Nate. I stand corrected .After rereading my post I believe I was a bit unclear.I agree totaly that "Roman" style hilts like the one from Hod Hill,Cotterdale, etc. are later LaTene IV, and may have been Roman manufactured.I believe (and should have made more clear)that many earlier Roman Hilts Looked more "celtic" i.e. sloped shoulders on many Republican blades,and Sculptural depictions(looking for sources)of trilobate pomels on Roman swords.IMHO early republican blades may have been more similar to LeTene I blades, than is often illustrated(one exeption is very small illustration in Connolly's Greece and Rome at war p.134 that shows a Roman surveyor armed with a sword with a Latene hilt).When did the "Roman" type hilt with spheroid pommel ,fluted grip,and straight guard develope?200b.c.?100b.c.?50b.c.?It appears that the "Roman" type hilt of the Later Republic/early empire is merely a simplified LaTene type hilt....what else could it have developed from? |
No, I stand corrected! I don't so much mind seeing Roman hilts displaying adopted or adapted features, as it's pretty clear that Romans adopted items either wholesale or slightly modified. I myself hilted my hispaniensus blade with a sloped shoulder "celtic" style guard with Isle of Delos style pommel. I also discussed the idea with Hugh Fuller just this weekend, the adoption of the trilobate pommel---adopted in all liklihood because of the separate and distinct "fica" symbol to the Roman mind. I just revolt at the idea of supplying Celtic swords with austere pommels stripped of the fairly obvious symbolic value!
A very interesting question of when the spheroid-based hilt styles came into being. I simply have no answer for this! Republican hilts seem to have much more variety, as Matt Amt showed with his Ahenobarbous (sp) hilt and Hugh's "fica" hilt... yes I don't see why Romans may not have directly used some of the "Celtic" styles, but with less reverence to the symbolism....
| James King wrote: |
| OUTSTANDING Kirk! I believe this is one of the most informative threads I have read.I am glad to see (finally) some one illustrating the developmental similarities in "Celtic" and "Roman" swords.I have always had a problem with the commonly accepted view of Iron age sword hilts being purely "Celtic" or purely "Roman"...
Your work shows a simple , clear , line of development of {European} swords of the period. |
James...
Thanks for the kind words...
My sequence shows a "simple clear line of development " because I was very selective in choosing swords which would show such a development. I personally believe there may be some relationship between this sequence and the interaction of design concepts, especially at certain points. However, reality is much much more complex. The fact that the anthropomorphic theme is easily recognized and the Celts were obsessed with human form, especially the head, makes the sequence more plausible. Yet we will probably never know for sure if such a sequence has any historical validity... that is why I like to speak of this project in terms of "design space" as opposed to time and space (strictly historical.)
ks
Hi all...
I doubt I would be able to do such a sequence of images on Roman swords... The reason is that (IMHO) Rome was not built on a material culture, especially one with deep rooted long-lasting symbolic components. Rome was built on an idea. The idea of Empire. And the closest Rome got to originality was in this context, of law and social order. The material culture (and most of its immaterial culture) of Rome was borrowed, first from the Etruscans (and Greece through the Etruscans) and then all the cultures that fringed the empire (such as the Celts). The destictive Romaness of Rome was the beautiful (or more correct "practical") ways it combined these different elements into a unified whole. It is interesting that Rome liked mosaics, because in terms of culture Rome was a mosaic of ideas.
The Roman swords are no exception. It is fitting that Rome would take the beautiful blades of the Iberians and gradually turn them into the workhorse of the gladius. IMO Rome was practical above all else (its strength and its weakness). So when Roman swordsmith were working at the forge he could produce 10 straight guards for every bell-shaped flanged LaTene type guard. Many round and oval pommels could be produced for every trilobate pommel.
In short, though the celts may have been passing and Rome endured as an empire, in terms of design it was Rome that was passing by and the celts remained. As I consider the same development in design through the migration and viking period it is not the Roman design (what ever that was) that reappears but the celtic... Trilobate pommels, knotwork engraving, hidden faces and beasts.
The common idea is that as the Celts are being chased westward by the Romans the Celtic swords begin to show Roman influence. What about the possibility that as Rome declines in the west, the celtic bladesmiths have the freedom to take more time and add the older celtic motifs to the last of the "Roman" spatha (a sword form borrowed from the Celts in the first place).
ks
I doubt I would be able to do such a sequence of images on Roman swords... The reason is that (IMHO) Rome was not built on a material culture, especially one with deep rooted long-lasting symbolic components. Rome was built on an idea. The idea of Empire. And the closest Rome got to originality was in this context, of law and social order. The material culture (and most of its immaterial culture) of Rome was borrowed, first from the Etruscans (and Greece through the Etruscans) and then all the cultures that fringed the empire (such as the Celts). The destictive Romaness of Rome was the beautiful (or more correct "practical") ways it combined these different elements into a unified whole. It is interesting that Rome liked mosaics, because in terms of culture Rome was a mosaic of ideas.
The Roman swords are no exception. It is fitting that Rome would take the beautiful blades of the Iberians and gradually turn them into the workhorse of the gladius. IMO Rome was practical above all else (its strength and its weakness). So when Roman swordsmith were working at the forge he could produce 10 straight guards for every bell-shaped flanged LaTene type guard. Many round and oval pommels could be produced for every trilobate pommel.
In short, though the celts may have been passing and Rome endured as an empire, in terms of design it was Rome that was passing by and the celts remained. As I consider the same development in design through the migration and viking period it is not the Roman design (what ever that was) that reappears but the celtic... Trilobate pommels, knotwork engraving, hidden faces and beasts.
The common idea is that as the Celts are being chased westward by the Romans the Celtic swords begin to show Roman influence. What about the possibility that as Rome declines in the west, the celtic bladesmiths have the freedom to take more time and add the older celtic motifs to the last of the "Roman" spatha (a sword form borrowed from the Celts in the first place).
ks
:eek: What a fantastic post :eek:
THANKS!
THANKS!
Hi guys I realy enjoyed reading this Celtic forum. Altough i am not finnished reading it in total (man what a huche list of postes!) I have allready learned a lot!! Thanks to you all!
Now I do have an idea, what would you say if whe follow these posts up by posting url's of all the swordforgers and others we can think of, wo have Celtic swords in there Product range and on there web page. And I mean all of them: cheap, expensive. good, bad, close replica's and free interpretations. And then discuse them...
Now I do have an idea, what would you say if whe follow these posts up by posting url's of all the swordforgers and others we can think of, wo have Celtic swords in there Product range and on there web page. And I mean all of them: cheap, expensive. good, bad, close replica's and free interpretations. And then discuse them...
I'll offer a link in the high end custom range: Jake Powning http://www.powning.com/jake/home/j_homepg.shtml
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
This is a really cool one Jay!
The sword itself is a as far as I can tel a very good replica.
Altough I wander what the handling carracteristics are...
Looks to me that these are the swords that where made for offering to the Gods.
The scabbard is offcourse made up, alltouch he has bin inspired by other celtic scabberds and Celtic art.
Fortunately he has avoid using the knotwork patern he has used on his other (laterperiod) swords
But stil I think the pattern is borrowed from something (a Celtic bible?) that dates from a later period than where the sword originates from.
Do you know the price?
And do you know of someone wo held this sword in his or her hands...?
The sword itself is a as far as I can tel a very good replica.
Altough I wander what the handling carracteristics are...
Looks to me that these are the swords that where made for offering to the Gods.
The scabbard is offcourse made up, alltouch he has bin inspired by other celtic scabberds and Celtic art.
Fortunately he has avoid using the knotwork patern he has used on his other (laterperiod) swords
But stil I think the pattern is borrowed from something (a Celtic bible?) that dates from a later period than where the sword originates from.
Do you know the price?
And do you know of someone wo held this sword in his or her hands...?
| Folkert van Wijk wrote: |
| Hi guys I realy enjoyed reading this Celtic forum. Altough i am not finnished reading it in total (man what a huche list of postes!) I have allready learned a lot!! Thanks to you all!
Now I do have an idea, what would you say if whe follow these posts up by posting url's of all the swordforgers and others we can think of, wo have Celtic swords in there Product range and on there web page. And I mean all of them: cheap, expensive. good, bad, close replica's and free interpretations. And then discuse them... |
Hi Folkert...
Not too many makers of the celtic swords... Wish there were more.
Here are a few links:
http://www.templ.net/weapons/antiquity_and_ea...ge.php#A14
http://manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=166
http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/celtic-sword-latene.htm
I have heard rumors that Albion is going to add celtic and proto-celtic bronze swords to their Next Gen line... Now that will be something to see.
ks
Hi Folkert,
Those first two links that Kirk supplied are actually my swords (or at least the first commissions of that model). So, if you have any detailed questions to ask about them, feel free to drop me a PM.
Here is another link:
http://www.replik.de/
Look under "Shop", then "Bewaffnung", then you will find this:
[ Linked Image ]
The scabbard is pretty far off, but the sword has decent looks, aside from a couple of nit-picks. I don't know anything about the handling, which is the only reason I had not pruchased one of these yet.
N
Those first two links that Kirk supplied are actually my swords (or at least the first commissions of that model). So, if you have any detailed questions to ask about them, feel free to drop me a PM.
Here is another link:
http://www.replik.de/
Look under "Shop", then "Bewaffnung", then you will find this:
[ Linked Image ]
The scabbard is pretty far off, but the sword has decent looks, aside from a couple of nit-picks. I don't know anything about the handling, which is the only reason I had not pruchased one of these yet.
N
It's good to finally see grips other than the anthropomorphic ones. Now we just have to get these guys to switch to a mid-rib style or a true lensatic cross section.
But they're definately headed right direction! :)
But they're definately headed right direction! :)
Pleas Dan, will you be so kind to explain these terms to me?
mid-rib style??
lensatic??
I couln'd find them in my dictonary :\
mid-rib style??
lensatic??
I couln'd find them in my dictonary :\
| Folkert van Wijk wrote: |
| Pleas Dan, will you be so kind to explain these terms to me?
mid-rib style?? lensatic?? I couln'd find them in my dictonary :\ |
Lensatic or lenticular is lens-shaped in cross section, i.e., cut the blade in half and it looks like a lens shape Mid-ribbed usually refers to a radiused blade or hollowground blade that is constructed so that one ridge is raised down the center of the flats of each blade (mid-rib).
Here is a quick illustration you will see the lenticular and "hollow ground".
[ Linked Image ]
The Celtic sword made by Patrick Barta for me is lenticular in cross section.
I'm currently sort of working on a Celtic sword commission that is mid-ribbed. Here, this reproduction (though not accurate to the actual sword find) is mid-ribbed:
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Selections from the Prague Museum of Nat. History. Sorry about the terrible scan quality. The originals are sharp and detailed, but I never can get our library's scanner to work the way I want it to. I don't have any stats for these, but I do want to point out the decoration on the blade of the first one--cup and ring motif up both sides to just beyond the "ricasso" and thin decorative lines up both edges. The sides of the grip are ridged.You can see these features if you look very closely. I can provide dramatically better scans from home if anyone needs to see detailed images.
Attachment: 107.82 KB
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Attachment: 107.82 KB Attachment: 109.44 KB Attachment: 99.49 KB Attachment: 101.05 KBLooks like that last one was in one amazing fight :eek: . Or it's a folding travel model :lol: .
Nate - ( I saw you were joking, but in case you're not familiar with those bent swords). They don't know what the exact reason behind it was, but there are a fair number of ritualistically damaged swords just like that. Some also have large nicks in them.
Sean - That first one is real impressive to me. Those rivets and pin look machine made. As a blacksmith it gives some further insight into what tools black/bladesmiths of that era had in their smithies. (Rivet headers, quality of files, (drill presses, power hammers <grin>))
The second one has an interesting decoration (an 'eye' ) in the center of the quillon.
Good pics, thanks!
Sean - That first one is real impressive to me. Those rivets and pin look machine made. As a blacksmith it gives some further insight into what tools black/bladesmiths of that era had in their smithies. (Rivet headers, quality of files, (drill presses, power hammers <grin>))
The second one has an interesting decoration (an 'eye' ) in the center of the quillon.
Good pics, thanks!
Re: that last sword--I was going to make a crack about sword swallowing but decided against it.
Dang! I must have been under a rock to miss this thread! Outstanding gentlemen! I just got a quick scan of the posts so far and I can see Im going to have a lot of catching up to do. This is what happens when you have 4 scabbards in progress! I might have to put the tools down for a little while and get up to speed here. Kudos all around guys! :D
Tom
Tom
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