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David McElrea
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 Posted: Sun 14 Nov, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Kirk, Nathan, et al,
Thanks for some amazing posts-- and sorry I haven't been able to respond. I have been swamped over the last two weeks and haven't been able to do much except take a superficial glance at the forum. There's a lot of fascinating stuff here and I shall enjoy immersing myself in it... probably this evening (just taking a quick glance before going out to do some teaching).
David
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Shane Allee
Industry Professional
Location: South Bend, IN Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Sun 14 Nov, 2004 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Made a trip to Notre Dame today to pick up Navarro again and found a few other books. Here is a little tid bit from Celtic Art In Britain before the Roman Conquest by Ian Stead put out by the British Museum. Saying that it is very similar in look to the Liebau sword would be an understatement. Haven't had a chance to dive into the text as of yet to give any more details though.
Shane
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 28 Nov, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Follow up topic Celtic Swords?? |
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This is a fabulous thread that I only just read (and will take a long time to absorb).
Folkert made a great suggestion some time ago, but the thread got away from this:
| Folkert van Wijk wrote: | | Now I do have an idea, what would you say if whe follow these posts up by posting url's of all the swordforgers and others we can think of, wo have Celtic swords in there Product range and on there web page. And I mean all of them: cheap, expensive. good, bad, close replica's and free interpretations. And then discuse them... |
There were a few great links some forumites provided for high end replicas, but not really for the lower end. So let me try to stick some links in here (I hope they work):
Kris Cutlery Celtic Leaf Blade
http://www.kriscutlery.com/medieval/assets/ce...ic_big.htm
From this and other threads, it seems that the leaf shape blade was common in Bronze Age swords. But, am I correct in observing that the leaf shape was less common in Iron Age pieces? Also, while I have heard that this Kris Cutlery sword is well made, is it representative of anything historical?
Museum Replicas Early Celtic Long Sword
http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/showpr...osition=13
Comments on this piece?
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Wed 01 Dec, 2004 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Shane Allee wrote: | Made a trip to Notre Dame today to pick up Navarro again and found a few other books. Here is a little tid bit from Celtic Art In Britain before the Roman Conquest by Ian Stead put out by the British Museum. Saying that it is very similar in look to the Liebau sword would be an understatement. Haven't had a chance to dive into the text as of yet to give any more details though.
Shane |
First off... Great looking shield Nate... but I refuse to be pulled into collecting shields... I will not succumb... I must stay strong!!! 
Hey Shane,
Thanks for posting the picture of the Liebau look-a-like. I am also trying to get my hands on Navarro again.
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Wed 01 Dec, 2004 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Follow up topic Celtic Swords?? |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | This is a fabulous thread that I only just read (and will take a long time to absorb).
Folkert made a great suggestion some time ago, but the thread got away from this:
| Folkert van Wijk wrote: | | Now I do have an idea, what would you say if whe follow these posts up by posting url's of all the swordforgers and others we can think of, wo have Celtic swords in there Product range and on there web page. And I mean all of them: cheap, expensive. good, bad, close replica's and free interpretations. And then discuse them... |
There were a few great links some forumites provided for high end replicas, but not really for the lower end. So let me try to stick some links in here (I hope they work):
Kris Cutlery Celtic Leaf Blade
http://www.kriscutlery.com/medieval/assets/ce...ic_big.htm
From this and other threads, it seems that the leaf shape blade was common in Bronze Age swords. But, am I correct in observing that the leaf shape was less common in Iron Age pieces? Also, while I have heard that this Kris Cutlery sword is well made, is it representative of anything historical?
Museum Replicas Early Celtic Long Sword
http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/showpr...osition=13
Comments on this piece? |
Hi Steve...
On the Kris Cutlery Celtic Leaf... If the blade was bronze instead of steel, it is possible that is looks somewhat like some of the Urnfield swords... especially if you squint.  However, I'm not sure that I would call the Urnfield stuff Celtic. Maybe "proto-celtic"? (I have attached a couple of photos of similar looking Urnfield BA swords.)
As for the MRL Celtic Long Sword. I am not sure that I have ever seen an anthro-hilt with such a long blade. Only a few that I have seen are even short swords... most are long daggers. Maybe if you cut the blade down??? That would probably give it better balance also.
Good to have you on the forum!
keep postin.
ks
Attachment: 75.74 KB
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Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Allen W
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| Posted: Thu 02 Dec, 2004 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Several years ago in Austria I saw a number of anthropomorphic hilts on blades that were surprisingly uniform throughout the country. I eyeballed the blade lengths at roughly twenty-eight inches, all with narrow double fullers and parallel sided for about the first three-fifths of their length before abruptly tapering to a long triangular point.
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Thu 02 Dec, 2004 5:36 pm Post subject: ???? |
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| Allen W wrote: | | Several years ago in Austria I saw a number of anthropomorphic hilts on blades that were surprisingly uniform throughout the country. I eyeballed the blade lengths at roughly twenty-eight inches, all with narrow double fullers and parallel sided for about the first three-fifths of their length before abruptly tapering to a long triangular point. |
OK, prepare yourself for a barrage of questions 
I don't mean this to be at all antagonistic, but if you you saw that many anthro-hilts, of that character, then this drastically re-vamps most of the literature about anthro-hilts is saying. So I am a little surprised! And very interested to find out the nature of these swords. So here go the questions:
Do you have pictures?
Are we talking about true anthropomorphic hilts? Usually the term anthropomorphic hilt applies to those swords with an all or nearly all-mettallic hilt with clearly modeled human form, if sometimes a bit stylized....Usually, the authors do *not* include antennae hilted swords, those with merely branched knob "arms" or the more stylized and suggestive "anthropoid" features, as seen on swords like the Kirkburn sword posted earlier in this thread. It is a fairly common speculation that the "classic" organic celtic hilt was often a stylized anthro-form. But in the literature, the term refers to hilts looking much more like the MRL sword above.
Were these iron swords, or bronze weapons?
Did they date fromt he La Tene period?
How sure are you about the blade length?
Basically, the reason for the confusion and questions is that there is a fair amount written about celtic La Tene period anthropomorphic "swords". They are in fact rare, and as Kirk noted, very short as a rule, according to a *lot* of sources. Clarke and Hawkes did a survey of the exisiting anthropomorphic hilts from across Europe, and catalogued only 50. Of that number, only 1, from Kysice, was the size of the weapons you describe. All the others were/are shorter, almost always shorter than gladius-size by a few inches.
I am surprised that if the Austrian museum has these, it is not noted int he literature. The subject and class of weapons has been reviewed as late as the late 1990's (at least) and the review included the whole European "set" of the weapons, and included a survey of the literature regarding them in many languages and from many countries---including the Austrian/German area, the Carpathian basin, the former Gaul, and of course Britain and Ireland.
I am quite frankly baffled that such a number of these wepaons escaped review, even in the more recent German-language publications. Are these a very recent find and new exhibition?
Do you remember which museum? If so, I would love to contact the museum directly to inquire about the cache!
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Allen W
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| Posted: Fri 03 Dec, 2004 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, Nathan I don't have photos. This trip was my first experience trying to photograph swords in museums and under glass so very few turned out. The blade lengths are all estimations by sight but I feel confident about them. I do not know the find context or period, here I can only blame my relatively weak command of German and the fact that I was somewhat rushed so I did not devote a great deal of effort to reading the descriptions. I was studying in Innsbruck for six weeks and trying to see the rest of the country on the weekends. I most clearly remember seeing them in the Kelten Museum and the salt mine in Hallein, Salzburg as well as Bozen/Bolzano Italy (I forget the name of the museum but it is the same one containing Otzi the iceman). There may also have been some in the Zeughaus in Innsbruck though I am not sure. I will look through my notes later to see if I can be more exact. I most clearly remember being struck by the uniformity of design. As I believe I stated earlier the hilts were anthropomorphic like the MRL versions except that only the shoulder/arms/head section and hips/legs sections were usually present. The midsection forming the grip was absent and presumably organic.
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Fri 03 Dec, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Allen W wrote: | | Sorry, Nathan I don't have photos. This trip was my first experience trying to photograph swords in museums and under glass so very few turned out. The blade lengths are all estimations by sight but I feel confident about them. I do not know the find context or period, here I can only blame my relatively weak command of German and the fact that I was somewhat rushed so I did not devote a great deal of effort to reading the descriptions. I was studying in Innsbruck for six weeks and trying to see the rest of the country on the weekends. I most clearly remember seeing them in the Kelten Museum and the salt mine in Hallein, Salzburg as well as Bozen/Bolzano Italy (I forget the name of the museum but it is the same one containing Otzi the iceman). There may also have been some in the Zeughaus in Innsbruck though I am not sure. I will look through my notes later to see if I can be more exact. I most clearly remember being struck by the uniformity of design. As I believe I stated earlier the hilts were anthropomorphic like the MRL versions except that only the shoulder/arms/head section and hips/legs sections were usually present. The midsection forming the grip was absent and presumably organic. |
Hi Allen,
Thanks for getting back to the thread so quickly and indulging me in this conundrum, I do appreciate it. There is a possibility that what you saw both revamps a good deal of what is in the literature, at the same time confirming a theory or two I had as well!
Nonetheless, I am currently of the mind that what you saw may well have been one of the Halstatt hilt form, or more "standard" La Tene blades with some surviving metal portions--possibly even some very early Migration weapons, but not sure....
When you get the chance to look at your notes, I would be very glad to hear your thougths at the time. I suppose there is no chance you sketched as well? 
Thanks again,
N
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Fri 03 Dec, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Bell wrote: |
...At the same time confirming a theory or two I had as well!
N |
Hey Nate....
Come on and tell us about these theories... sounds very interesting.
I promise I'll be nice!
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Allen W
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| Posted: Mon 06 Dec, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Well Nathan, I've looked through my notes and found nothing on the celtic swords and so have to rely on my memory. I have no idea what the typical La tene sword looked like but these looked sort of like stretched gladii in that their points were long and triangular in profile rather than curving into the point from parallel edges. And as I said they had two very narrow fullers. These were definately not Mexican hat pommels and looked to me exactly like the anthropomorphic hilts I have seen except for the missing torso/midsections. I didn't make any sketches either. Had I not been in such a hurry for this entire trip and had I a better idea of which pictures would and wouldn't turn out, I would have.
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Tue 07 Dec, 2004 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi Allen and Kirk,
Allen, thanks again for your continuing patience! I wish I could just peek into your head and see what you saw....A couple more questions:
were the metallic hilt parts bronze, iron or a little of both?
Did the pommel area have a direct repre3sentation of a human face carved/molded on it?
The fullers, you mentioned, if I understand correctly, only extend 2/3 of the blade length? Narrow fullers?
Kirk,
Ah my theories are nothing earth shattering, just more of what I touched on above in this thread re: Celtic v. Roman pommel styles.
One theory I have is that the "celts" with their love for abstract and multilayered symbolism, reflected this symbolism in the organic hilts (rather than jsut equipping with a plain spheroid pommel).
Another theory is that we don't see the expanse and depth of artistry in hilts that would have been expressed in period. The sources we have are very lacking: bare tangs usually and Classical carvings from those who encountered the Celts. From the latter, we get an idea of the rough shapes, sometimes. However, as I understand it, these monuments were brightly painted in period---thus we would miss a depiction of the designs on the hilts.
Another theory I have, based on the scant evidence left, is that the anthropomorphic principal was long-standing and very often, if not ususally, present. (I also mentioned this above, I think in the discussion with James King?). I further believe that this was likely incorporated into the prevailing dominant art style for each period---for example witness how this is done in the early "palmate style", as the palmate classical shapes are altered slightly to present faces within the palmates, mask fibulae. etc.
So when we see survivals with metallic components, we have a hint at these things, all taken together.
I think that the sword hilt picture posted by Shane Allee above is an illustartion of the base point and all the "theories" together:
The metal survivals show the form that (may) have been present in the organics. The overall feel is anthropomorphised---look how it suggests the human form while still remaining within the frame of the curvalinears. Also note the grip panel, and how it is covered with insular La Tene vegetal motif. The very pommel and guard shapes integrate into the vegetal motif, and carry it out into a suggestion of human form (also with layers of phallic symbolism, sprouting plants or buds, etc---multi layers/suggestions and easy to trace this form from earlier "celtic" dominant art styles).
So I am thinking that we would see a whole lot more happening in the period celtic organic components, and we sometimes get a glimpse with the surving mettallic fittings.
See, nothing really revolutionary
I still have a sneaking suspicion that what Allen saw is outside the La Tene time period, but that doesn't really negate the basic thrust of the "idea kernels" I threw out in this post.
N
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Bell wrote: | .
...One theory I have is that the "celts" with their love for abstract and multilayered symbolism, reflected this symbolism in the organic hilts (rather than jsut equipping with a plain spheroid pommel)...
Another theory I have, based on the scant evidence left, is that the anthropomorphic principal was long-standing and very often, if not ususally, present. (I also mentioned this above, I think in the discussion with James King?). I further believe that this was likely incorporated into the prevailing dominant art style for each period---for example witness how this is done in the early "palmate style", as the palmate classical shapes are altered slightly to present faces within the palmates, mask fibulae. etc...
...The metal survivals show the form that (may) have been present in the organics. The overall feel is anthropomorphised---look how it suggests the human form while still remaining within the frame of the curvalinears. Also note the grip panel, and how it is covered with insular La Tene vegetal motif. The very pommel and guard shapes integrate into the vegetal motif, and carry it out into a suggestion of human form (also with layers of phallic symbolism, sprouting plants or buds, etc---multi layers/suggestions and easy to trace this form from earlier "celtic" dominant art styles).
So I am thinking that we would see a whole lot more happening in the period celtic organic components, and we sometimes get a glimpse with the surving mettallic fittings.
See, nothing really revolutionary
I still have a sneaking suspicion that what Allen saw is outside the La Tene time period, but that doesn't really negate the basic thrust of the "idea kernels" I threw out in this post.
N |
Hey Nate...
Excellent ideas!
It is difficult for me to see the beauty of La Tene blades and the amazing carvings on metal components without imagining the organic components also carved or inlayed with coral or amber or enamel. I am sure that some portions would have been decorated and other left smooth just to highlight their simplicity. To me that is a major part of the design genius of the celts. They have an understanding of "negative space" (undecorated shapes) that gives your eye a rest. It keeps the eye from being overwhelmed by full coverage patterns and shapes. It is often in this shaded/unshaded feature that allows them to bring out the hidden faces and forms. I have found a really nice horse head motif that I am going to try to incorporate into the organic components of a LaTene sword I am building.
Thanks for taking the time to share your theories.
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Guys,
This is a wonderful thread. I have a question that has been bothering me for some time and was hoping that someone could shed some light on it. It is a quote from Diodorus of Sicily. He wrote that the Celts,
bury plates of iron in the ground and leave them there until in the course of time the rust has eaten out what is weak in the iron and what is left is only the most unyielding… (V.33.4)
I have spoken to a few metallurgists and they seem to agree that, when buried, wrought iron would not deteriorate any more quickly than carbon steel. What matters is the amount of slag inclusions. The more slag stringers in the iron/steel the faster the deterioration. They also seem to think that the iron/steel would deteriorate faster than the impurities so the end result is less desirable than not buring the plate in the first place. My question is whether the process described by Diodorus could improve the quality of the iron/steel plate? It is possible that Diodorus misinterpreted the practice and it was actually some sort of sacrificial ritual, or the iron was buried as a means of hiding it from enemies.
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Kirk Lee Spencer wrote: |
Hey Nate...
Excellent ideas!
It is difficult for me to see the beauty of La Tene blades and the amazing carvings on metal components without imagining the organic components also carved or inlayed with coral or amber or enamel. I am sure that some portions would have been decorated and other left smooth just to highlight their simplicity. To me that is a major part of the design genius of the celts. They have an understanding of "negative space" (undecorated shapes) that gives your eye a rest. It keeps the eye from being overwhelmed by full coverage patterns and shapes. It is often in this shaded/unshaded feature that allows them to bring out the hidden faces and forms. I have found a really nice horse head motif that I am going to try to incorporate into the organic components of a LaTene sword I am building.
Thanks for taking the time to share your theories.
ks |
The negative space issue raises something of an idea kernel also...what we see ont he metal is often a matter of texture, which is clearly an intended result (when you look at the chagrinage of the Swiss style and the British cross--hatching you mentioned).
But, the smooth spaces for the organics may have been left smooth in texture, but bright in colour! The classical writers make a point (in disgust) of stating how fond the Celts were of bright color and ornament. I am thinking that this negative space might give a "rest" in some sense, but in others, may have been a different form of visual attraction.
The amount of negative space I think might also be seen as changing with region---particularly, loook at the Insular forms, both British and Irish. Look at how on the Kirkburn hilt, almost every square milimeter is covered with design. Similar thing with the Wetwang Slack and Lisnacrogher scabbards. The micro design itself incorporates a smooth space, negative space, but the sprawling designs cover the entire scabbard face (or hilt and grip, as the case may be)
Even on the Continent, you see other items with the design filling the space to an almost baroque level. Yes the design itself incorporates an interaction of negative and positive, but ofetn the design elements repeat and swirl all over the object---for instance the Agris helmet, (the famous iron and bronze helm covered in the intricate gold leaf decor, often photographed ijn survey Celt books) similiar concept with the Saint Jean Trolimon helm components
On the Continent, you see very little of the all over design on sword scabbrds, mainly just the repouse top and carved chape elements, if one excepts the stylisms of the slavic-area "beautiful style". However, here is another heretical idea chain :
Very easy to see the metal scabbards polished to a bright shine, giving quite the glow and visual attraction. Even more outlandish but maybe possible---brightly colored paint on the smooth metallic scabbard face. Possibly the paint may be patterned as well. In the find contexts, the organic paint would be long vanished, as were the hilt components. So who knows what may have been there in that now austere smooth space? Perhaps even a thin layer of brightly colored textile, stitched on, now long rotted away?  Speculation, but a real possibility when you look at the find contexts and think of how the Mediterraneans described these "garish" barbarians.
However, the modern mind and the modern re-enactor, collector often find their more staid and steady minds revolting at the prospect of such a riot of colour and design
So Kirk, are you carving the organic hilt for that La Tene I pattern-weld you pictured earlier? Which horse motif are you adopting (I mean from what pieces/find, I suppose, or is it an isolated element from Sanz, or Jacobsthal or somewhere?)
N
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | Hi Guys,
...My question is whether the process described by Diodorus could improve the quality of the iron/steel plate? It is possible that Diodorus misinterpreted the practice and it was actually some sort of sacrificial ritual, or the iron was buried as a means of hiding it from enemies. |
Hey Dan...
I have heard the same thing... that there is no discernable difference in the oxidation rates of different quality iron and steel. It is often true of Roman historians (as with most intellectuals take simple observations and try to apply their own interpretations. Soon their interpretations take on the same level of objectivity as the initial observation. So your idea of it being a misunderstanding of weapon sacrifice or hoarding iron ingots makes alot of sense. At least stories of burying iron to improve its quality is better than grinding up the blade and feeding it to the chickens. Supposedly after the blade has made several trips through the bowels of chicken it has the perfect carbon levels.
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
Last edited by Kirk Lee Spencer on Fri 17 Dec, 2004 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Bell wrote: |
But, the smooth spaces for the organics may have been left smooth in texture, but bright in colour! The classical writers make a point (in disgust) of stating how fond the Celts were of bright color and ornament. I am thinking that this negative space might give a "rest" in some sense, but in others, may have been a different form of visual attraction...
Very easy to see the metal scabbards polished to a bright shine, giving quite the glow and visual attraction. Even more outlandish but maybe possible---brightly colored paint on the smooth metallic scabbard face. Possibly the paint may be patterned as well. In the find contexts, the organic paint would be long vanished, as were the hilt components. So who knows what may have been there in that now austere smooth space? Perhaps even a thin layer of brightly colored textile, stitched on, now long rotted away? Speculation, but a real possibility when you look at the find contexts and think of how the Mediterraneans described these "garish" barbarians.
However, the modern mind and the modern re-enactor, collector often find their more staid and steady minds revolting at the prospect of such a riot of colour and design
So Kirk, are you carving the organic hilt for that La Tene I pattern-weld you pictured earlier? Which horse motif are you adopting (I mean from what pieces/find, I suppose, or is it an isolated element from Sanz, or Jacobsthal or somewhere?)
N |
Hi Nate...
Sorry I am so slow in responding... The end of the semester is a busy time for me.
Great point about the color... And recent traces of pigment found in classical statuary shows that most of them were probably painted in vivid colors. So if they thought the Celts were colorful, the Celts must of had some bright neon looking stuff. It may even be that the textured surface was to hold the paint on the surface better (like the cross hatching on Viking sword to give some purchase ont he hammered silver plating). It seems as though the conservators would have done microscopic studies and discovered any remnants of enamel... but maybe not.
You are right that not all celtic designs involve negative space and there does seem to be clear regional distinctions. One aspect that does seem to be pretty universal is the hiding of faces in the stylized meanderings and curves of their beautiful designs. It is somewhat like a visual riddle. Some of the faces are very clear and others are almost invisible. I was looking though a Celtic book the other day and my two year old son pointed at a couple of simple scrolls and said "face". So even the simplest designs can still reflect the celtic fascination with the face and head.
As for your question about my future Celtic sword... Just about the time I have settled on a hilt design for my early LaTene blade I find something better. Right now I am going with the horse motif on the guard and a pommel somewhere between the romanesque oblong shape and the triangular nested egg seen on the Ballykillmurry sword.
The horse face motif I mentioned is made by placing two trumpet scrolls face to face. An ingenious piece of decoration from a chariot (I think) found at Stanwick in Yorkshire. I had thought about doing it in red coral inlays, then I thought it might be too bright... but not from what you have said. As a matter of fact red coral may be a little too dull .
ks
Attachment: 95.76 KB
Celtic Horse Head Design from Stanwick in Yorkshire
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:18 am Post subject: horse face |
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Hi Kirk
This thread continues to delight. Someone must have said it already, but that horse face looks almost
African in style.
Geoff
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Nathan Bell
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| Posted: Wed 22 Dec, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Kirk Lee Spencer wrote: |
It seems as though the conservators would have done microscopic studies and discovered any remnants of enamel... but maybe not. |
Hi Kirk,
Now it's my turn to apologize for not getting back to you. Beyond new baby, chalk it up to wanting to give a more coherent reply to good insights *g*
On paint and Celtic swords, or any other surface treatment, one horrible reality we are dealing with is the fact that so many of the pieces were discovered decades, even up to a century ago. Navarro mentions specifically how a great many of the La Tene swords and scabbards were "cleaned" after the find then waxed very close to initial excavation. Eek! If the original excavators were careful, things like enamel flakes, amber, coral, etc. would be preserved. If a little ham-handed, all is lost to us.
The other thing is, what type of paint? The Roamn Duras Europa shield was painted with cassein paints. You can acheive many bright hues with cassein and natural pigments. My "hide-shaped" British shield above is painted with casseins, and it gives a pretty bright shwoing in natural lighting! But, as you know, that paint is not only perishable, but water soluble. Any traces of that would likely disappear long before the organic hilt components, etc. rotted away, leaving little to no trace?
| Quote: | | One aspect that does seem to be pretty universal is the hiding of faces in the stylized meanderings and curves of their beautiful designs. It is somewhat like a visual riddle. Some of the faces are very clear and others are almost invisible. I was looking though a Celtic book the other day and my two year old son pointed at a couple of simple scrolls and said "face". So even the simplest designs can still reflect the celtic fascination with the face and head. |
I agree, the stylizing and hiding of the face and human form carries throughout the several centuries of La tene culture. In each phase, the way they "hide" these faces seems to vary slightly, in amost fascinating way. From the La tene I mask fibulae to the very late period insular art scrollwork, a very subtle changing of prsentation yet always there. Same with horse, bird and boar stylisms.
The trumpet scrolls also seem to be a more persistent fetaure. Lifted fromt he early Mediterranean palmate decorations, the Celts evolve these in very subtle and distinct ways. I am beginning to be able to notice the difference in era by looking at the presentation of trumpet scrollwork on a given piece, and how it interacts with the space it's in. Neat stuff for dating, and I finally begin to understand what Jacobsthal, Jope and the gang mean when they voice something along the lines of "This object is"clearly Early La Tene one by decorative stylism" *G*
| Quote: | As for your question about my future Celtic sword... Just about the time I have settled on a hilt design for my early LaTene blade I find something better. Right now I am going with the horse motif on the guard and a pommel somewhere between the romanesque oblong shape and the triangular nested egg seen on the Ballykillmurry sword.
The horse face motif I mentioned is made by placing two trumpet scrolls face to face. An ingenious piece of decoration from a chariot (I think) found at Stanwick in Yorkshire. I had thought about doing it in red coral inlays, then I thought it might be too bright... but not from what you have said. As a matter of fact red coral may be a little too dull .
ks |
I also have a great liking for the Ballykilmurray pommel, and the associated finds such as pictured in Rynne (earlier int he thread). Someday I will carve up a hilt for a sword in that stylism, with a little gusto, and employing some of the ideas about colour and carving...someday. I am sure your hilt will look quite nice, it's a great shape and style.
BUT (unfotunately, I always seem to have a "but"? ) I am a little hesitant in my own worlk and commissions nowadays about mixing styles. The Continent has some patterns distinct from contemporary Britain, and the Irish stuff is distinct from either---Raftery finds many of the material culture items distinct enough to question whether they should even really be called "celtic" in the sense of material culture as it relates to Continental traditions.....
The other thing about the Ballykilmurray and "pregnant egg" style from Ireland and North Scotland is dating. Laying aside the issue of regionalism, Raftery labels those bulbous antler pommel and guards and "pregnant egg" pommels as his Type 2.
According to Raftery, several strands of evidence point to the Type 2's being much later than La Tene I--actually the early centuries AD. I find his arguments convincing, based upon the finds, suggesting early centuries AD Roman trade products and influence.
Convergent evidence also seems to support this, to my reckoning. The "pregnant egg" style seems to be a late derivative of earlier trilobate forms---perhaps a blending of the more rounded Imperial Roman styles with a long tradition of "traditonal Celtic" trilobate (or perhaps subanthropomorphic) styling. Look at the Rynne article itself. Rynne's one extant Continental (Bohemian) parallel is quite distinct from the pregannat egg---the "lobes are a good bit more defined yet and extend almost to the base of the pommel. And the tombstone stelae he uses to date this a Romano-Gallic cavalryman, shows not only the blended celtic and roamn influences, but a date of 1st century AD.
Compare these pommel with the Britsh pommel with similar styling, and *known* to be late period (La Tene IV)---Worton Lancs sword, Caerlon sword, and the Broguh pommel. You can see a center rounded form, and two lobes "cupping" it, but not yet joining at the top to form the more roman-like ovoid. Compare that to earlier depictions of hilts, like the Kirkburn, the Flannery brooch---even the tombstone of Cauis Romanius mentioned before---all have still distinct lobes. The British pieces, you see the outer lobes becoming more blended with the middle and having a unified external form, but still clearly a distinct trilobate image. These La Tene IV sword are probably 1st century Ad or so by the evidnece found in situ with them....so one can perhaps see the development of the pregnant egg pushes the style trend further, perhaps later.
Raftery labels the Ballykilmurray as a Type 2a---menaing he's not sure it's smack with the 2's which are fairly sure to be early centuries AD, or if it is a transition between earlier, La tene based styles with a subcampulate metal guard that seems to be depicted fromt he carving. At any rate, seems to be at the cusp of early centuries AD if it is transitional....
Long way of saying, I like the style, great look overall, but seems to be a bit late in period for a German La Tene I, if strictest historical accuracy is an aim? Also perhaps, just perhaps a bit out of region since the nearest parallels seem to come from Britain and Ireland? but with long-perished hilts, all this still falls under the category of "Who knows?"
But if you also like trilobate forms, but with more distinct lobes, less egglike or oblong, there are obviously Continental depictions like the Flannery brooch. Also the late Republican Roman stelae (I think it was Cauis Manlius?) shows a sort of "fica" trilobe. The Romanius stone has the trilobe, and I recently got a book showing a Gallic wars era centurian's tombstelae, where he bears a trilobate gladius, the pommel almost like a shamrock! The "problem" with these, if such bothers you is that they are mainly still a bit late for your period, the Flannery brooch probably being the very closest.
Anyways, my ramblings, FWIW. I know whatever style you choose, it will look sharp and be well-excuted after seeing some of your other woodwork on hilting projects. However you hilt it I would be glad to see it posted!
N
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Wed 22 Dec, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: horse face |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | Hi Kirk
This thread continues to delight. Someone must have said it already, but that horse face looks almost
African in style.
Geoff |
Hi Geoff...
You are right the simple design is very african. It would be even more so if it had more straight lines. Here is a carving of a little girl believed to have been thrown into a spring as a votive offering. It shows the simple angular cuts seen on some African masks.
Attachment: 78.55 KB
Celtic Girl Votive Offering found in Spring Deposits Near the Source of the Seine
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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