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Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
Lol, is the fail green archer wearing clogs? Surprised Laughing Out Loud Surprised

and I get what you are saying glennan. And I've already got around the hose thing, just confirming suspicions about the cloak. (you have to admit, it sounds quite warm)
hhhmmm... what do you think is cheaper and eisier to do well? a late 14th cent or early-mid 15h cent yeoman archer?


Yes, he's wearing clogs! I mean, who doesn't wear clogs with their mid-14th century leisure suit? Big Grin

The late 14th century to early-mid 15th century is a bit of a transition period for male clothing. It is over this period that the doublet transitions from a purely military garment, to a noble's garment, to a commoner's garment. As a fighting man (we'll ignore the term 'yeoman' as this covers a massive range of incomes) you'll most likely be wearing a doublet.

The doublet itself would have longer 'skirts' (peplum) than the later 15th century, and come to just about the top of the leg. Hose were single-legged for most of the period, but joined to the doublet with points.

This arrangement, with a doublet and multi-pointed, single-leg hose is very practical and gives a much better range of movement than joined hose. I suspect it would have been the clothing of choice for most fighting men.

I'll confirm what others have said: mid-14th century clothing is generally much easier to make (and good for starter kit) and much easier to wear. In addition you can always bring old clothes forward in time (they just get less fashionable - and you get poorer - as time goes on) but you can't 'back-project' fashions - for example, wearing joined hose in the mid-14th century.

Finally, a cloak is fine if you're sitting on a horse, travelling; or just sitting. They're just not very practical for doing anything else. They have a terrible tendency to get in the way, hamper your movement and drop in your food! That said, there's very little that's better for wearing when sitting round the fire in the evening! Happy
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Josh Skaarup





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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To those of you hosers Wink, what think you of this modern trend for men to wear increasingly tight and womanly jeans? I can just picture a group of re-enactors in hose, jeering mildly as a group of emo kids creak by in jeans made for a 12 year old pubescant girl. Its funny to me, is all. Full circle!
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Bryce Felperin




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr, 2010 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Got a theory...

Sometime around 800 to 1300 the climate got warmer. A recent article I read in Science Daily states that Sequoia tree ring studies indicated this period as a time of climate warming worldwide (not just in West North America). Article link is here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/...0.htm[url]

My theory is the warmer climate allowed less warm clothes and simpler clothes, so a transition from trousers to tights occurred. By the Mid 1300's the little Ice Age started up and lasted for the next four hundred years, so the tights developed back towards pants. There is definite evidence for warmer clothing and trousers before this warming time so it might ve a valid link. The warming and cooling dates correspond to historical fashions so it kind of makes sense.

In any case it's a theory...if any of you are planning on writing a disertation go ahead if you want to use this theory yourself. ;-)

Regards,

Bryce[/url]
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Bryce Felperin




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr, 2010 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
While it may not be a 'cloak' as such, Gerry Embleton's Medieval military costume (Ramsbury, The Crowood Press, 2000) on page 63 depicts an:

Quote:
Officer of the Black Forest infantry contingent in the 1474 campaign, dressed in black and armed with pole-axe and sword. Note the slit sleeves of his hooded overgown.


Revival Clothing's description of their cloak had a discussion about some of the reasons for separate hoods, including that this can be quite a warm combination (sorry I can't provide the link - the page has disappeared from their site just this week, but will probably reappear in the future). I guess it also gave soldiers flexibility as to whether they wore a hood or helmet ... although the question of where to put your hat/hood while wearing a helmet is one that intrigues me. Embleton & Howe's The medieval soldier has a photo of one with it slung over his shoulder, with the liripipe tucked into his belt, which doesn't seem particularly practical ...

And for what it's worth, the issue of integral hoods vs waterproof hats comes up in hiking/backpacking circles every so often ... while the integral hood can keep rain out of the neck better, anything that pulls down on the jacket - such as a backpack - can pull down uncomfortably on the hood, so some folks argue for a separate hat. I wonder if practical factors similar to this (rather than 'just' fashion) were relevant to the general medieval preference for a separate hood at all?


When I was in the US Army, we wore the poncho OVER the rucksack and helmet. It was designed for this. I don't think there is any evidence though that our ancestors in Europe did this at all, at least any images or descriptions I've seen.
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Christopher Treichel




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Josh Skaarup wrote:
To those of you hosers Wink, what think you of this modern trend for men to wear increasingly tight and womanly jeans? I can just picture a group of re-enactors in hose, jeering mildly as a group of emo kids creak by in jeans made for a 12 year old pubescant girl. Its funny to me, is all. Full circle!


Hey as tight as that gets It won't be to long before they start wearing codpieces again...
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hose are not neccecarily cold; I've walked around in hose and breeches in -10 Celcius... However, i was also wearing 4-6 layers of wool at the time..
It seems that as long as your tunic(s) are thick and long enough to cover you loins, the heat loss isn't that bad.

On the same note, cloaks are increadibly neat for walking and standing around in, but not that good for any kind of activity.
For this reason, large cloaks seems to have been worn by noblemenn or women, while commoners would either use shorter cloaks, additional outer tunics, or hoods with extra long collars.

One way to make cloaks more managable is to wrap them around your body, toga style. this is both warmer, and makes walking around in a huge cape less bothersome. ( I've got a 3/4 circle, 150cm/5 ft radius, wool lined noblemans cape, which is quite substantial...)
There are plenty of pictures of cloaks both with and without integrated hoods, indicating that it was pretty much a matter of personal taste.

(However, the MOST important thing about a cape is that it is large enough to perform the Anticent Cape Trick™. Wink )

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Nikodem Czechowski




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
There are plenty of pictures of cloaks both with and without integrated hoods, indicating that it was pretty much a matter of personal taste.


I've never seen any, and would be very glad if you could show me any picture from XV century Europe showing a cloak with integrated hood.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 15th century isn't "my" period; However, they appear occationally in the 13th c; for instance in "The Life of Edward the Confessor", for instance in this plate;
http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Ee.3.59/zoomer

I must rephrase myself, though. I seemed to remember seeing more of them; What IS very common is integrated hoods on the sleeved surcotes.

The Edward manuscript is generally quite neat, since the artist seems to draw everyone with cold weather clothing (Presumably because it takes place in England...)

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Kevin S





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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Treichel wrote:
Josh Skaarup wrote:
To those of you hosers Wink, what think you of this modern trend for men to wear increasingly tight and womanly jeans? I can just picture a group of re-enactors in hose, jeering mildly as a group of emo kids creak by in jeans made for a 12 year old pubescant girl. Its funny to me, is all. Full circle!


Hey as tight as that gets It won't be to long before they start wearing codpieces again...


I can't remember which company is doing it, but there's a line of mens pants with padded crotches to produce a similar, though more subtle, effect.
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Apr, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While we are on the reoccurring Renaissance fashions, I've noticed some ppl around my high school are putting multiple slashes in their jeans and wearing leggings or something under it to show a contrasting color through. Does this not just have Landsknecht all over it? Wink

Watch, someday we will all in fact be at the forefront of fashion as people actually stumble back into Renaissance/Medieval fashions completely ! The premier fashion designers will be slaving over how to get the perfect fit and cuts for the new "modern" clothing styles, and we'll come out in our hosen and doublets and such, and completely blow them all away. And from there, as we are suddenly the foremost authority in fashion, we will start wearing swords and armour too, and make them fashionable as well. And while we are at it, we should advocate jousting, foot combat at the lists, and historical rapier and longsword. Just think of all that we could get accomplished! Cool

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Michael B.
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PostPosted: Sun 09 May, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Found these while researching the timeline of hosen. They are from churches in Sweden, artwork is dated to the late 15th century.


Ask church, Östergötland Late 1400s (1480-1490?) Anund Mästare


Gokhem church, Västergötland unknown but 1400s

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Michael Bergstrom
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stumbled on this online few years ago. Don't know much about it, other than that it's related to the Guild of St. Olaus:
http://www.olofsgillet.org/

The impression here clearly seems to be aimed at 15th c. Sweden, and looks fantastic in every detail. Like the Company of St. George, this group seems to have extremely high standards for kit.



 Attachment: 216.6 KB
olofs.gif


-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

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Walter S




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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That picture looks quite weird - probably Photoshopped. Particularly the curraiss and helm of the crossbowman don't sem to match their surroundings (from where is the light on his forehead coming?).

Last edited by Walter S on Mon 10 May, 2010 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some dodging, perhaps, but there are others in the same series showing the helmet and kastenbrust. Definitely not digital creations.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Thom R.




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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 12:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Walter S wrote:
That picture looks quite weird - probably Photoshopped. Particularly the curraiss and helm of the crossbowman don't sem to match their surroundings (from where is the light on his forehead coming?).


probably from a visor slot in the helm
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Correct--The light is striking the face through the sights.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Walter S




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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Correct--The light is striking the face through the sights.


My bad then, I wasn't aware this kind of helmet would have visor slits there.
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Michael B.
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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kevin S wrote:

Hey as tight as that gets It won't be to long before they start wearing codpieces again...


I can't remember which company is doing it, but there's a line of mens pants with padded crotches to produce a similar, though more subtle, effect.[/quote]

It's calvin klein, their "body" line. From their description
"evolutionary shape enhancing fit
low rise, slim fit, thick premium denim
forward shifted side seams for a slimmer leg
reinforced fly for an enhanced profile
back pockets engineered to enhance assets
contrast stitching + omega detail back pockets
washed in wrinkles"

And from Revival Clothing's website regarding hose

" In keeping with the 15th century aesthetic of smooth, shapely limbs, you will find that the hose accentuate the contours of the leg, while giving a flowing, athletic look. Whether you are built like a power-lifter or a distance runner, you will be surprised at how these hose will emphasize all of the right things, and turn more than a few ladies' heads admiringly."

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
While we are on the reoccurring Renaissance fashions, I've noticed some ppl around my high school are putting multiple slashes in their jeans and wearing leggings or something under it to show a contrasting color through. Does this not just have Landsknecht all over it? Wink :


Here are my friends, notice my dread headed friend with the landsknecht pants!




What comes around, goes around.

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Michael Bergstrom
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Eric Hejdström




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PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean and Michael, the group Olofsgillet in Stockholm is still active even if the webpage haven't been updated in a while. And yes their main goal is to recreate late 15th century swedish townsmen and soldiers. Many of the members are also members of Company of St. George. I would dare to say that Olofsgillet is the most serios group in Sweden today, and one of the best in northern Europe. But I don't know where you have found the extremely low quality picture there...

Regarding the church paintings with pants I don't think too much should be read into them. They are very often used as reference for medieval pants, just as the drawings by Paul Dolnstein. However, these are just a handful of depictions of pants compared to the thousands of hosen shown in other paintings.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 16 May, 2010 2:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Hejdström wrote:
Regarding the church paintings with pants I don't think too much should be read into them. They are very often used as reference for medieval pants, just as the drawings by Paul Dolnstein. However, these are just a handful of depictions of pants compared to the thousands of hosen shown in other paintings.


And practically all are of lower-class people to boot! This is the reason I've been avoiding trousers like the plague for anything later than a 10th- or 11th-century impression--if you were rich enough to afford fitted hose, you wore hose.
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