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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 7:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very good point there, Jessica!

The general idea, as you said, for me is that to only think in terms of footplacement and stands as the concept of Waage, Libra is a bit narrow. The name Waage is acctually very good just because it has all this meaning into one word. It means both scales and wave and eaqual to...

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Roger Norling




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

...not not mention "flow", "dare" and "risk" (your neck). Happy

And I agree, good point, and great images, Jessica!
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Jessica Finley
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed, guys, that was precisely my (attempted) point. All of these meanings exist, and for a reason. There isn't a good English word that synthesizes all of the meanings into a single concept, but this concept can be encompassed in your mind. I think it's very important, when we look at the "names" of medieval concepts to accept all of these meanings and see how they all apply at any given moment.

It could be that they intended a very "literal" meaning of the word. But even if you do that, you have to allow room for thinking on "what does a scale mean to a medieval man? How does HE see a scale?" For even the literal meaning could have shades of implication that aren't readily apparent to us today due to cultural shifts.

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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 8:36 am    Post subject: Excellent point         Reply with quote

Martin, Roger and Jessica

Very very good points. This is crucial to remember in the context of translation. The medieval mind set was that there were layers of meaning in almost any word. It was not the same view of language and meaning that we have. In fact it is a major hurtle in the translation of text from this period that there very nature at points denies the modern idea of categorization and simplification to do so loses the original meaning.

In our research it has proven over and over that the meaning is almost never just a simple idea.

I will turn some efforts to the "waage" and see if we can add anything but the depth of what you have defined is probably an excellent place to put ones mind in understanding this.

Best
Craig
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Christian Henry Tobler




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect too, along the lines of Jessica's recent research, that the astrological texts those images usually come from may shed some further light on the concept of Waage; that is, what symbolism is attached.

Cheers,

CHT

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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jessica, Martin, Roger, Craig -

Great musings! of course the idea of a wave - so important in body mechanics, is also similar to how a "balance", that is scales, settle upon a weight - think of the motion of pouring water back and forth from one glass to another.

I agree with Craig - there is usually an obvious, literal meaning, but we need to remember that metaphor is such a crucial element of medieval thought. I will be really interested in where your musings go with that.

Oh, and thank you all for making this thread into something useful. Wink

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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words!

Quite often I as a native swede gets other first thoughts in my head when I see a medieval German word than the English translations. I don´t know if it is because the Swedish language has so much influences from medieval German or if it is because Swedish still is a bit of an old-style language with a vocabulary and flora of proverbs that is more as German was in the period of the manuals than modern English witch has a lot more words than modern Swedish.

I have no academic ground for these first thoughts and I get it wrong some times but more often than not the hunch comes out right after delving deeper into a concept. I´m not afraid to hang the first thoughts out there for you to take at face value but they might help us sometimes. It´s apparent we need more Historical Linguistic Scholars in the fencing ranks. No offence to the ones already here!

Cheers all!

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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin,

You have some interesting points there. One of the reasons that English is considered such a good language for international business and communication is that it has a massive vocabulary and easily introduces new words. On the other hand, because of how it evolved, and the size of its vocabulary, it can be used very literally by modern speakers, and we forget that language can have a more symbolic or metaphorical quality. I see this when I read things in Italian all the time, for example - it isn't just that the word order is different, often *how* words are used is different.

We absolutely need more people who are language scholars in the community. My friend Keith Alderson, who works with Craig Johnson up in Minneapolis, has done all of his graduate work in medieval German and medieval German books, and has just finished a very interesting paper, for example, looking at the different implications of "leger" and "hut", and why they can both appear in a single text, such as 3227a. I have nothing like his expertise, and my German consists of ordering dinner from a menu, but I hope that it will prove thought and discussion.

The physical study of this material is crucial, but so is the context. The more we delve into the use of symbol, language and how books were used and perceived in the 14th - 16th centuries, I think the more *martial* lessons we will find revealed.

Best,

Greg

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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is very interesting. As I was sitting here watching some of our newbes sparring on video to spot if there was any trace of Waage in their fencing I scratched down words that I felt connected into the principal of Waage. And the first two are Leger and Hut. So I will muse on them with my Swedish brain. Big Grin !

Leger is translated into Swedish as läge (Pron. as lay-ghe but with the y almost soundless) and läge is trans. as position or place. But the Swedish läger (pron. as lay-ghe-r rolling r as a scot would do it) it means camp or bedplace.

Could it be that Leger is a more of a technical concept. I´m here in this position, this leger.

Hut is generally translated into cottage or guard in English and this is correct. The Swedish translation would be hydda or hus and the guard conitasion (sp?) would be skydd. A few years back I had a hunch that there could be a connection in this to the Swedish word hot witch means threat.

At that time the I was correctly told that Hut does not mean threat, but with our discussion here there I wonder about the possible link to this meaning. A bit like standing as a threat like a guardhouse over the way into you or something.... way out the limb here but anyways...

Swordsman, Archer and Dad


Last edited by Martin Wallgren on Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tom Leoni
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jessica, Greg, Martin, Christian ~

Great and interesting points--it's amazing how little it takes to salvage a thread.

Tom
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Wallgren wrote:
That is very interesting. As I was sitting here watching some of our newbes sparring on video to spot if there was any trace of Waage in their fencing I scratched down words that I felt connected into the principal of Waage. And the first two are Leger and Hut. So I will muse on them with my Swedish brain. Big Grin !

Leger is translated into Swedish as läge (Pron. as lay-ghe but with the y almost soundless) and läge is trans. as position or place. But the Swedish äger (pron. as lay-ghe-r rolling r as a scot would do it) it means camp or bedplace.

Could it be that Leger is a more of a technical concept. I´m here in this position, this leger.


Keith translates them as "lyings" and "wards", with the idea that leger is more conceptual, a general position or style of fight originally, and hut is a ward or guard. Interestingly, Keith has never read Silver, but Silver uses "lyings" and "wards" as well, with the former usually being one of his "fights", and the latter a guard...

Again, lots of us all to think about. It doesn't *necessarily* change anything on the day to day level of our training, but it may give us insights at a more profound level.

Greg Mele
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, Martin, if you will pardon my ignorance, but whom are you training with/what group are you leading, since leaving ARMA? I recall some of your old half-swording videos, but I think that was before the split.
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Wallgren wrote:
That is very interesting. As I was sitting here watching some of our newbes sparring on video to spot if there was any trace of Waage in their fencing I scratched down words that I felt connected into the principal of Waage. And the first two are Leger and Hut. So I will muse on them with my Swedish brain. Big Grin !

Leger is translated into Swedish as läge (Pron. as lay-ghe but with the y almost soundless) and läge is trans. as position or place. But the Swedish äger (pron. as lay-ghe-r rolling r as a scot would do it) it means camp or bedplace.

Could it be that Leger is a more of a technical concept. I´m here in this position, this leger.

Hut is generally translated into cottage or guard in English and this is correct. The Swedish translation would be hydda or hus and the guard conitasion (sp?) would be skydd. A few years back I had a hunch that there could be a connection in this to the Swedish word hot witch means threat.

At that time the I was correctly told that Hut does not mean threat, but with our discussion here there I wonder about the possible link to this meaning. A bit like standing as a threat like a guardhouse over the way into you or something.... way out the limb here but anyways...


I will try to encapsulate a bit of what we have looked at with these types of terms. It is very difficult as it can be a long string of things that come together to make these types of things stand out and anyone who has worked language like this will know it can get involved. So this is very much a dirty quick comment that may have to many mistakes to be useful.

We will usually start by looking at the root words and their related contexts. This does not mean what is the word in a modern dictionary but rather where did the word Hut or Leger for example come from. While the term had meaning when it was written in the middle ages that meaning was based on its usage, probably in several context from older uses even then. If my fuddled brain is correct something like Leger has a base related to such ideas as larder and lager. i.e. storing or preparing for later use.

One can quickly see how these would appeal to one describing the action of one who is preparing and recovering from actions. The word hut also relates to this as the root referred to the setting up of temporary structure to protect oneself as in the case of being on a journey or a hunt.

One of the aspects of working from the language like this is we will have a tendency to try and find words that communicate the meaning behind some of these terms as opposed to just getting a word that translates across in the modern sense. So in this case we will often use the term ward as opposed to guard for these types of meanings.

This is also one the reasons we appreciate Christians work in the translating so much as he has captured this essence so well.

When you get into these levels of meaning on words it is always nuanced set of choses one has to make and it can often be a real challenge to make the meaning clear in a text without great exposition.

Best
Craig

PS Any total gaffs in the above description are purely my own and should not be attributed to any other or the beer I wish I had had at lunch. Happy
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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
Also, Martin, if you will pardon my ignorance, but whom are you training with/what group are you leading, since leaving ARMA? I recall some of your old half-swording videos, but I think that was before the split.


I´m now in the MnHFS (MittNorrlands Historiska Fäktskola= Middelnorthland Historical Fencingschool) a bransh of the same tree as GHFS in Gothenburg. We are located in Örnsköldsvik (Famous for being the hometown of a lot of NHL players like Peter Forsberg, Marcus Näslund, the Sedin Twins and a few more. Not bad with a population of about 40000!) About 550 klicks north of Stockholm on the Eastcoast!

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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Wallgren wrote:
Greg Mele wrote:
Also, Martin, if you will pardon my ignorance, but whom are you training with/what group are you leading, since leaving ARMA? I recall some of your old half-swording videos, but I think that was before the split.


I´m now in the MnHFS (MittNorrlands Historiska Fäktskola= Middelnorthland Historical Fencingschool) a bransh of the same tree as GHFS in Gothenburg. We are located in Örnsköldsvik (Famous for being the hometown of a lot of NHL players like Peter Forsberg, Marcus Näslund, the Sedin Twins and a few more. Not bad with a population of about 40000!) About 550 klicks north of Stockholm on the Eastcoast!


Ah great, I'm glad to hear that HEMA is doing so well in Sweden. (Of course, GHFS is well known over here).

While discussing language, here is a brilliant piece of work by Terry Brown that he just made public today. It addresses many of the sorts of questions that we were just discussing:

http://www.terrybrownmartialarts.com/category...ribing-use

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Roger Norling




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
Martin Wallgren wrote:
That is very interesting. As I was sitting here watching some of our newbes sparring on video to spot if there was any trace of Waage in their fencing I scratched down words that I felt connected into the principal of Waage. And the first two are Leger and Hut. So I will muse on them with my Swedish brain. Big Grin !

Leger is translated into Swedish as läge (Pron. as lay-ghe but with the y almost soundless) and läge is trans. as position or place. But the Swedish äger (pron. as lay-ghe-r rolling r as a scot would do it) it means camp or bedplace.

Could it be that Leger is a more of a technical concept. I´m here in this position, this leger.


Keith translates them as "lyings" and "wards", with the idea that leger is more conceptual, a general position or style of fight originally, and hut is a ward or guard. Interestingly, Keith has never read Silver, but Silver uses "lyings" and "wards" as well, with the former usually being one of his "fights", and the latter a guard...

Again, lots of us all to think about. It doesn't *necessarily* change anything on the day to day level of our training, but it may give us insights at a more profound level.


Etymology used to be my favourite subject back at university, and I often pick up my old etymology dictionary when studying manuscripts. As Martin has noted earlier, there are lots of connections between modern Swedish and medieval and renaissance German, so it comes quite natural. Thoughts on origins of and relationship between words just keep on popping up. Happy

It occured to me that Waage also could be related to "wager a bet". In Swedish we have"våga" with the meaning "dare", to risk something and "daredevil" translates to "våghals". "Wagehals" in old German.

Regarding "Leger" in Swedish its original meaning was "bed" or "resting place" so "lyings" sounds like a good translation. "Hut" appears to relate to "treasure" and "a safe place" so once again, the translation seems good.

Martin, the Swedish word "hota" appears to possibly have a vague relationship to "hydda" (eng. "hut"), and originally meant a "stick". Compare to dialectal "hytta" or "hötta" with something, which basically means to threaten someone with something, just as "hota". So Martin, perhaps you are on to something here... Works well the idea of always maintaining a threat. Happy

This is turning into a very interesting thread indeed. Perhaps more and more off-topic though. Perhaps it should be split off into its own thread?
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Norling wrote:

Leger is translated into Swedish as läge (Pron. as lay-ghe but with the y almost soundless) and läge is trans. as position or place. But the Swedish äger (pron. as lay-ghe-r rolling r as a scot would do it) it means camp or bedplace.




Since I am not very familiar with the meaning of Leger in other languages or applied here to swordsmanship the following comment is either going to be useful or totally useless. Wink Laughing Out Loud

But in French " Léger " means light as in light in weight and in another meaning being quick to hit according to my old Larousse dictionary " Avoir la main légère " sort of means less literally being very quick to hit someone or quick tempered I guess !?

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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
But in French " Léger " means light as in light in weight and in another meaning being quick to hit according to my old Larousse dictionary " Avoir la main légère " sort of means less literally being very quick to hit someone or quick tempered I guess !?

Actually there are two expressions:
"Avoir la main légère" is to intervene with moderation, as opposed to "avoir la main lourde" which means a very strong, perhaps too strong action.
"Avoir la main leste" means being very quick to hit or otherwise act. "Leste" in this context means quick or agile.

In my opinion neither are related to the German "leger". The French word "léger" comes from the latin "levis" which means not heavy, "leste" comes from the Italian. I don't know the German etymology but if I had to translate the German "leger" in French I would think of "lieu", which might be related...

Regards,

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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And on the topic of balance, scales and weight transfer...

There is a fun little circus implement that might be a very good illustration of the concept, with a built-in analogy with scales. It's called the rolla bolla or "rouleau américan" in French. The basic form is a plank on which you stand, that rests on a cylinder that rolls on the ground. Here is a demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3K4_DdxufU

My girlfriend has one so I tried Happy It really gives a very special feeling and you have to work with your hips and legs to maintain the balance or oscillate as you want. Im' quite sure it can improve your overall stability... I wonder if this kind of implement was common in medieval times?

Regards,

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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I wonder if this kind of implement was common in medieval times?


What is probably the ancestor of this - a balance board on a log - is pretty common in more recent times. A common toy/game for children in many places, both Finland and Korea to my certain knowledge, but surely elsewhere too. I haven't seen/heard of traditional ones where you could roll along - the round log isn't round enough, and this is just on the ground, not a hard smooth surface.

Somewhat displaced by TV, video games, and flashy plastic toys these days. But there are some interesting spring mounted balance toys to be seen in playgrounds these days (at least in Australia) - a couple of these at the right distance apart could be an interesting training toy.
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