Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > ARMA Footwork Article Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next 
Author Message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To me, the raised heel in Fiore looks like it's indicative of some sort of motion or movement, that it's a representation of the dynamicness of fighting actions. From the photo posted of Greg, it looks more like he's adopted the position as a posture to move out of, rather than a flowing action in mid-motion. But that's just my take.
View user's profile Send private message
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
To me, the raised heel in Fiore looks like it's indicative of some sort of motion or movement, that it's a representation of the dynamicness of fighting actions. From the photo posted of Greg, it looks more like he's adopted the position as a posture to move out of, rather than a flowing action in mid-motion. But that's just my take.


Craig,

It is not me in the picture, but my student Jesse. Those images are *poste*, or guards, a number of which are qualified as "stabile", thus meaning that you can hold and lie in them. So while they are dynamic, they are also static positions as well. So we can't read into what Fiore says when he says "stand like this".

Greg

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill

For your peace of mind let me state the following: I, Ran Pleasant, do not speak for John Clements, ARMA, or any ARMA members. Anything that I have said and will say is nothing more than my personal opinion.

Bill Grandy wrote:
Quote:
Bill, would you agree that the following picture of a senior student of a leading Fiore instructor is a valid indicator of current Fiore interpretations?

Randall, I'm pretty appalled that you would sink to this kind of behaviour. You know full well that this "leading Fiore instructor" is Greg Mele, so don't try to pull any of this passive aggressive garbage just so you can make a childish dig and play innocent. Worse, you took a person who has nothing to do with this thread, has not said a single negative thing about the article, has no leg in this race, and overall has nothing to do with anything we're talking about, and you dragged him into the thread to make an insult about his form to make you appear right (nevermind that I think you're completely wrong). This isn't 6th grade, Randall. For someone who had the audacity to claim that I made an ad hominem attack on ARMA just because I dared to disagree with you, you certainly aren't taking the moral high ground.

I used the picture to show that video and pictures do indicate current interpretations. This was confirmed when Greg Mele said that there are issues with the pictures but the raised heel was not an issue. We do not depend just on video and pictures to understand interpretations outside of ARMA but both are valid indicators. Interpretations by people within ARMA and by people outside of ARMA are not state secrets.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in me using the picture or in the manner in which I used the picture. Saying that I think a person's interpretation is wrong is not a personal attack against that person. Likewise, saying that I think the the way Jessie is standing in the guard is wrong is not an insult to Jessie. I would like to think Jessie's skin is a little thicker than that, if not then the picture should not be available to the public. By the way, I did not say that you made an ad hominem attack on John Clements because you disagreed with him, I said it because you suggested that John either couldn't read or didn't read the works of the historical masters. Another point, there is no moral grounds here, either high or low, we're just talking about interpretations.


Greg Mele wrote:
So it would be *demonstrably* wrong for someone studying Fiore to always have their heels flat on the ground...

I never said that one should always have their heels flat. I was talking about standing in a specific guard, not about how one moves, does a Volta, or performs Fabris' girata.

Quote:
The concepts of the Scales, the Volta, etc are not new or revolutionary, and have been in use for years.

I'm sure that John Clement would fully agree with you that the Scales, Volta, etc, are not new, he would say that they are indeed several hundred years old. Clearly many people who are studying these arts today are doing Voltas and other parts of the Scales.

Quote:
Those images are *poste*, or guards, a number of which are qualified as "stabile", thus meaning that you can hold and lie in them. So while they are dynamic, they are also static positions as well.

With his front heel raised as shown in the picture, how long can Jessie actually lie in that guard? Was Jessie actually stable in the picture? With two bad knees and 50+ year old legs I can stand in that guard a long time if I lower my heel into the Scales and I'll be very stable. Nothing is more elephant than the Scales!

Quote:
So we can't read into what Fiore says when he says "stand like this".

John Clements and other scholars do not read into what Fiore says or shows any more than you do. Everyone, including you and John, are only working with nothing more than interpretations.

The Scales might not fit with the "approved consensus" that you and some others hold, that is your choice. However, people are reading the article and evaluating the Scales. And I'm sure that many of them are going to start applying the Scales in their interpretations, even when doing Fiore. The community is moving ahead, one can choose to move ahead with it or to stay where they are.


Bill and Greg

Unless something really interesting is posted this will be my last post as I'm sure things will just go the way these threads always go. May both of you find great success in recreating these lost arts.


Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler




Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 704

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't study Fiore's art, save for compare and contrast purposes, but I can hold a position like the one Jesse's forming for a very long time. The illustration of the guard Ochs found in the Von Danzig Fechtbuch shows the leading foot positioned the same way, and I use that all the time. It's just not an issue.

Equating the Scales with standing flat-footed is a confabulation, and it's unsupported by any treatise on fighting. The idea that you can't be 'balanced' with a heel raised is also insupportable: ballerinas can be 'on point' for great stretches of a performance; no one would accuse them of being off balance.

Cheers,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
The illustration of the guard Ochs found in the Von Danzig Fechtbuch shows the leading foot positioned the same way, and I use that all the time.

Christian

That is a valid interpretation of that Von Danzig image. Another valid interpretation of that Von Danzig image is that the foot is flat on the ground.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler




Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 704

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

I think most reasonable people would disagree, but let's throw that one out for a moment and look at the illustration from the same plates of Alber: the trailing foot is clearly bent, so unless he's braced against a rock, his heel's off the ground.

Further, and more completely, undermining the idea that Waage='flat footed' is the plate in Codex Wallerstein that mentions this idea. Neither combatant is illustrated as flat-footed.

Cheers,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

Yet again, you are arguing without *answering*.


Quote:

I never said that one should always have their heels flat. I was talking about standing in a specific guard, not about how one moves, does a Volta, or performs Fabris' girata.


Yes, and I just showed you the images of those guards *with the heels raised*, which you have not addressed.

Quote:
The concepts of the Scales, the Volta, etc are not new or revolutionary, and have been in use for years.

I'm sure that John Clement would fully agree with you that the Scales, Volta, etc, are not new, he would say that they are indeed several hundred years old. Clearly many people who are studying these arts today are doing Voltas and other parts of the Scales. [/quote]

Again, you are conflating the idea that these terms and concepts are interchangeable and advocated by all masters, which they are not.

Quote:

With his front heel raised as shown in the picture, how long can Jessie actually lie in that guard? Was Jessie actually stable in the picture? With two bad knees and 50+ year old legs I can stand in that guard a long time if I lower my heel into the Scales and I'll be very stable.


He can sit like that indefinitely, as can I, and as you know, I have a spinal cord injury and had to relearn how to walk at 30 years old. I still get muscle cramps and when I'm tired my balance declines, and I can use the stance easily. The weight is on the rear leg. But your and my infirmities are irrelevant, the question is, what did Fiore show, and the heel is raised.

I'd also point out that this sort of stance is hardly unique to Fiore. You can find it in many kicking arts, some Japanese sword arts and Tai Chi. If senior citizens and the community center can do this, I think a European knight can. Wink

Further, if one *reads* the description of the guard and how it is meant to be used, it specifically requires the weight to be off of the lead foot.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and since you feel that what we do here in Chicago is wrong, let me repeat my request to have you photograph yourself standing in Fiore's 12 poste and post them here, so we can look at them against the source material's illustrations and text.

Based on *your* personal understanding of John's theory of the Scales, tell me, how do you interpret the raised foot position shown by Vadi in many of his guards, such as these:



or these:



In just two leaves of one manuscript, and one sourced for the ARMA article, you have raised front heel, raised back heel and flat feet.

Quote:

John Clements and other scholars do not read into what Fiore says or shows any more than you do. Everyone, including you and John, are only working with nothing more than interpretations.

The Scales might not fit with the "approved consensus" that you and some others hold, that is your choice.


That *sounds* reasonable, but it is a fallacy, namely what is called "the appeal to sympathy". In this case, you are arguing that you fighting against "group think", and that all interpretations are equally valid. But that simply isn't true. I can argue all I want that the sun rotates around the Earth, and it does not make it so. I can deny the fossil record, but then it falls on *me* to prove why either carbon dating is false, or all of those dinosaur skeletons are a hoax. All data is not comparable.

Randall, I can demonstrate the images in a specific text - Fiore's Flower of Battle - corroborate it across all four copies of the work, compare that to the written descriptions, explain why a specific guard is formed the way it is based on tactics and body mechanics, and then physically replicate it. I can also show you where some of my colleagues in the community - Guy Windsor, Rob Lovett or Sean Hayes, for example, have slight variations, and where those variations can be justified based on that same set of data. But note the term *slight variations.* not flat-footed when the guard is depicted with the heel raised.

But you don't provide any direct data, you don't support your position with a specific, detailed analysis of the source being discussed. Instead you speak in vagueries, use jargon that is related *only* in the ARMA study method, combined with a discussion of what you *prefer* to do, based on your personal body characteristics.Which is all well and good, but it simply doesn't answer the question of what the specific source shows. This is the same point that Vincent and Bill have tried to make - taking selected pieces of artwork, out of context, divorced from their supporting text, and often depicting very different sorts of actions provides generalities, not a "Rosetta Stone". Indeed, in many cases, such as the examples Vincent drew from Thibault, it *obscures* comprehension of what the master himself wrote down.

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
Yet again, you are arguing without *answering*.

Greg

You are trying to draw me into that same old "not answering" game. My answers were complete. In the specific guard in question you have an interpretation which has the heel raised. Our interpretation of that specific guard is that the heel down. Now, that is a 100 percent complete answer.

Out of respect to the owner of this forum and following his earlier instuctions to all of us I'm not going to play this old game. May you have much success in your efforts at recreating these lost arts.


Ran Plasant
ARMA DFW
View user's profile Send private message
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

It is not a game, it's a fact. I wrote:

Quote:
Randall, I can demonstrate the images in a specific text - Fiore's Flower of Battle - corroborate it across all four copies of the work, compare that to the written descriptions, explain why a specific guard is formed the way it is based on tactics and body mechanics, and then physically replicate it.


Which I did. Contrarily, as I pointed out:

Quote:

But you don't provide any direct data, you don't support your position with a specific, detailed analysis of the source being discussed.


And you don't. Saying "that is not our interpretation" (and again, as Bill has asked you, who is "our". All of ARMA?) does not provide any data, nor "support your position with a specific, detailed analysis." Again, if I say that Galileo and Copernicus were wrong, I need to explain *why* I believe that. You are stating *what* you believe, not *why*, a specifically relates to the source in question. Likewise, you said not a single word about how you would then carry that analysis over to the Vadi images I posted.

Quote:

Out of respect to the owner of this forum and following his earlier instructions to all of us I'm not going to play this old game


Actually, what Nathan has asked for is that we be civil and that we stick to presentation and discussion of facts, the more detailed the better. I feel that Bill, Vincent, Christian and I have been doing precisely that. There is no sin in saying "I don't know", Randall. But when you are asked a direct question and provided with substantial data and you simply say "we don't agree", that is not a comparable answer, and in my opinion it weakens your assertions because they become just that - assertions, not detailed arguments.

Regards,

Greg

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tom Leoni
Industry Professional



Location: Alexandria, VA
Joined: 19 Apr 2004

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
"The first guard has the name of Alta. Set yourself elegantly upon your person, and hold the sword with the arm as high as possible. The sword will therefore point backwards. The buckler-hand should instead be well extended towards the opponent, stretching the arm as much as possible. Place your right foot about four fingers in front of the left, the heel slightly raised. Keep both of your knees straight rather than bent."


Antonio, Manciolino, Opera Nova--emphasis added.

We have countless examples, in word or in picture, where heels are raised. What we need to look at is what the *body* is supposed to do--the feet are only the means to this end.

There is no universal foot orientation in historical swordsmanship, only suggestions on how to best aid the body in its positioning.

Tom
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Todd M. Sullivan




Location: Upstate New York
Joined: 03 Oct 2003

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The article is past it's time, as many have already stated, footwork such as this has already been researched and taught in WMA events throughout the world for many years. It's old news.

I found his article "Where's All Ground Fighting?" very lacking, he apparently has never read the works of Master Martin Hunfeltz on ground fighting and pinning but then again he only looks at pictures.

His "Rosetta Stone" article is behind the times as well. Published works and seminars have been teaching everything he is saying for years now...it's nothing new and exciting. We all, if not most of the WMA community, already know it and/or it's already been published in book and film in the United States and Europe.

Most are tired of his I, I, I, Me, Me, Me articles and the self proclaimed "The world's foremost practitioner
of authentic Chivalric Arts of Defense" is nothing but vanity in itself but then again we all can't have private member section where we "self interview" ourselves.

And Randall don't bother commenting about my thread...you know who I am and what I know about your organization.

But one most understand that when you self publish articles on the internet that one has to except the open discussions about self centered articles. If you want the spotlight you have to deal with the media.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom Leoni wrote:
We have countless examples, in word or in picture, where heels are raised. What we need to look at is what the *body* is supposed to do--the feet are only the means to this end.

There is no universal foot orientation in historical swordsmanship, only suggestions on how to best aid the body in its positioning.

Tom

If you would take the time to actually read my posts you would see that I never said that a raised heel is never shown in images from the historical manuals. Greg and I were talking about one specific guard.

Well, you can stick you head in the sand and tell yourself: see no scales, hear no scales, speak no scales. But as I told Greg, the Scales might not fit with the "approved consensus" that you and your followers hold, that is your choice. However, people are reading the article and evaluating the Scales. And I'm sure that many of them are going to start applying the Scales in their interpretations. The community is moving ahead, one can choose to move ahead with it or they can choose to stay where they are. I wish you much success in your own efforts.

Todd M. Sullivan wrote:
The article is past it's time, as many have already stated, footwork such as this has already been researched and taught in WMA events throughout the world for many years. It's old news.

Waint a minute! WTF?!
Some of you are saying that the Scales does not exist but some of you are saying it has been taught for years. This is a little confusing.

Quote:
I found his article "Where's All Ground Fighting?" very lacking, he apparently has never read the works of Master Martin Hunfeltz on ground fighting and pinning but then again he only looks at pictures.

To quote your teacher Christian Tobler, "...bear in mind that Hunfeltz has only a little on fighting on your back - it's mostly how to put the other guy down and hold him long enough to dispatch him with the dagger" (http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5395&start=20) This supports John Clements' conclusions. By the way, what does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

Quote:
His "Rosetta Stone" article is behind the times as well. Published works and seminars have been teaching everything he is saying for years now...it's nothing new and exciting. We all, if not most of the WMA community, already know it and/or it's already been published in book and film in the United States and Europe.

There was a long ulgy thread on this forum where your teacher and others were complaining that we were not giving out enought information about John Clements' "Rossetta Stone" article. Now you are here saying it is all known and has been taught and published. This is truely more than just a little confusing.

Quote:
Most are tired of his I, I, I, Me, Me, Me articles and the self proclaimed "The world's foremost practitioner
of authentic Chivalric Arts of Defense" is nothing but vanity in itself but then again we all can't have private member section where we "self interview" ourselves.

So what does this have to do with the topic?

Quote:
And Randall don't bother commenting about my thread...you know who I am and what I know about your organization.

Yes Todd, we know very well who you are.

Well Todd, I think you set a record for the most insults in one post. Razz


Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
View user's profile Send private message
Dustin R. Reagan





Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 264

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:

Waint a minute! WTF?!
Some of you are saying that the Scales does not exist but some of you are saying it has been taught for years. This is a little confusing.



I have followed this thread, and i don't believe anyone has claimed that "the Scales" does not exist. Perhaps some folks believe that the Scales, as a concept, does not fit 100% with what John Clements has to say about the concept? Regardless, even if someone had made this claim, your reaction is very strange..I don't understand why it should be "confusing" that different people practicing WMA have different opinions on a certain concept. If i drew a Venn diagram of WMA, it would not look like:

(ARMA) (EVERYONE ELSE)

Which is what you have done more than imply. I'm not sure who this sort of us vs. them point of view benefits...?
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 11:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A few of you have received administrative comments via private message. I am posting a public notice to acknowledge this to all and to further remind those that received the messages to heed warnings contained in them. Please note that this is a very general reminder to all to act within the expectations of this site.

Should anybody have questions about this, I should be contacted privately.

Thank you.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A linguistic thought on Waage. A member of the GHFS in Gothenburg raised this thought on another forum.

Waage as a concept is often translated to Scales and this is correct but the translation into Swedish (witch has been influated by medieval german in many ways) would be Våg (pronousced almost as Vouge) and this can be translated into English as Scales or Wave. Wave in Swedish as in English can be both a motion or the water thingie. There is also a proverb in swedish that says "att vara i våg med..." (trans roughly, "be equal with..." or "At the same level as...").

As there is alot in common between Swedish and Old German I have and inkling the term Waage could have a wider translation that just Scales and I feel it´s a little bit missleading. We have used the term and our interpretation of it in the groups I´ve been in from 2004, when I trained in ARMA Gimo.

Our interpretation of it is a combination of balance, posture, footwork, bodymechanics and timing to get the sword to have maximum effect in all techniques.

I think JCs Scales a to narrow interpration of Waage. I really like the assembly of art though, to have it in one article is really great.

My 14 öre! (should by me 2 cents approx.) Big Grin

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Martin!
I am lurking around this forum too... Happy

Here is my post that you referred to, so I don't have to repeat all that I said there.http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopi...p;start=40 It's at the bottom of the page.

I would like to add though, that it can also be translated into "flow" and even relates to "dare" or "risk" and "weighing" or "calculating" something. For some time I have been thinking a lot about the similarities between some masters use of Waage and Jogo Do Pau, and since handling multiple opponents in multiple directions in a continuous flow is a key feature of Jogo Do Pau, it occured to me that the choice of words could be intentionally ambiguous, just as Drei Wunder and other similar terms. The waage makes such actions more smooth, and even enables continuous "flowing" with little footwork.

Here are two clips to compare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-N4DkK-VFs&am..._embedded#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmcYaSHdL5s&am...r_embedded

Also compare the JdP stance on the right to that of the man on the right in the Meyer image here:

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 2:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree Roger!

Also goes very well with the Cod.HS.3227a statement that constant movement is a key to the art. A wave is always moving it has a built in concept of force and moment that I belive is essencial to the Waage.

Hie merke das / frequens
motus / beslewst in im / begynnes
/ mittel und ende / alles fechtens / noch
deser kunst und lere

Here note that
constant motion [Frequens motus] holds
the beginning, middle and the end of all
fencing according to this art and teaching.
(David Lindholms translation)

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 2:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In that aspect it fits very well in with the same line of thinking and it should also work well with the concept of nachreissen. Of course, the "Scales" is a correct translation as well, which is clear for instance in Mair's latin, but it might just have more intentional connotations than just that. And Mair's latin is more of a translation of a German term, which of course would have had its difficulties in retaining any ambiguities.

In fact, a regular sinus wave moves pretty much as the bowls in a scale. Possibly, that is why a scale was named waage.

Here's another good JdP clip which is part of what got me thinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY5LOGtefAc&am...r_embedded

And another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VES-24LNGXA&am...r_embedded


Last edited by Roger Norling on Fri 19 Mar, 2010 6:50 am; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 6:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
Actually, what Nathan has asked for is that we be civil and that we stick to presentation and discussion of facts, the more detailed the better. I feel that Bill, Vincent, Christian and I have been doing precisely that. There is no sin in saying "I don't know", Randall. But when you are asked a direct question and provided with substantial data and you simply say "we don't agree", that is not a comparable answer, and in my opinion it weakens your assertions because they become just that - assertions, not detailed arguments.


To be honest I wasn't really expecting Randall to discuss specifics of Thibault... The fact that he totally ignored my post must imply that I had some good points in there Happy

Oh, I had missed a couple of the figures on p.73, fourth rank of images on the left:
  • 2:X.1: This is an interesting stance with the two-handed sword, that is not seen in many sources as far as I know. It is used in the article as an example for 'natural width-spacing between the feet' but I don't really understand what that means. I thought it meant that the feet were not aligned with the direction of the opponent but I can't understand how this particular stance is even remotely representative of that. Both feet are aligned and pointing towards the adversary. Just to be clear, what is original with this stance is that the right foot is forward (which is explicit in the text) but the left side is still turned towards the opponent. The body is thus wound up for the strike. It is a good example of how foot position is not the only thing that matters...
  • 1:X.1&2: The big figure is the typical representation of subjection in the Second Instance, which I think is Thibault's version of the Spanish atajo. The small one represents what happens when you keep going without care and get countered as you get closer. In the big figure the tip of the right foot and the heel of the left are aligned towards the opponent. In the small one, the tip of the right foot and the middle of the left foot are aligned to the opponent. I don't see how this supports "roughly shoulder-width" spacing.
  • 2:VIII.6&7: I guess the figures with the rotellas are what must be looked at (the other one is walking past to their left striking them along the way). Yet again the feet are lined up as is clear from the text and the figures. If you want to be really accurate the tip of the right foot and the whole left foot aree aligned towards the adversary.

Again, the illustrations are used in support of things they do not demonstrate. That seems significant to me, because Thibault is certainly not fighting on a line, uses plenty of cuts, uses the left hand to grab and disarm... and yet does not follow many of the things that the article states as universal for arts that have these moves. So, either Thibault was wrong, or the article is overstated. Guess who I'm going to trust Wink

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a slightly off-topic reply to Roger and Martin (and others) who are pondering Waage and the scales, let's not forget that Waage can also be "Libra" and that in Medieval thought, the constellation Libra was associated with the kidneys, and the portion of the body about the navel.... in other words, the balance point of the human body. I am in no way refuting what you're all thinking with the idea of a "wave" but rather adding to it. Let's always remember when looking at Medieval arts that they had a completely different world view, and one in which things which were allegorically connected were (to them) deliberately connected.

http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/bodies/large7669.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...al_Man.jpg

Selohaar Fechtschule, Free Scholar
http://www.selohaar.org/fechtschule

Fühlen Designs, Owner/Designer/Seamstress
http://fuhlendesigns.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > ARMA Footwork Article
Page 2 of 5 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum