Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > "Riveted" does not equal "Historical" Reply to topic
This is a Spotlight Topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next 
Author Message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,254

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 2:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Juan Cocinas wrote:
Could someone please post some decent close-up photos (plus hopefully measurements) of less weathered/deteriorated maille found in UK and/or Scandinavia dated from 800-1000 AD. I would be extremely interested to compare them visually with the photos of reproduction maille on this thread. Thanx! (still can't get over how incredible myArmoury is Big Grin )


I don't know if there is such thing at all... What you saw here and Gjermundbu mail: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manu...u_mail.jpg
(From Hurstwick web page.)
View user's profile Send private message
Andris Auzins




Location: Riga, Latvia
Joined: 29 Nov 2007

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 3:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Andris Auzins wrote:

Round Rings Riveted


No "watershed", and the rivet holes are not centered.


What exactly do you mean by "watershed"? Google isn't being very helpful.


"Watershed" is a rooflike shape of an overlap.
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/...-Chain.pdf

I remember Erik D Schmid saying that romans had rings with no "watershed", and I have observed maille with piston flattened rings without "watershed". It may be just me, but I haven't seen any authentic European maille where the ring overlap was completely flat.
View user's profile Send private message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andris Auzins wrote:
"Watershed" is a rooflike shape of an overlap.
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/...-Chain.pdf

I remember Erik D Schmid saying that romans had rings with no "watershed", and I have observed maille with piston flattened rings without "watershed". It may be just me, but I haven't seen any authentic European maille where the ring overlap was completely flat.


Thanks for the article. If I understand correctly, "watershed" means that the ring overlaps in such a way that it is completely flat. It does not mean that the rivet and the ring are almost fused together, forming a smooth bump (like in some pictures of authentic mail)?

Also interesting, the article says this (emphasis mine):

Quote:
The Knight’s Chain rings are set with a wedge shaped rivet. The most obvious detail from using this style of rivet is the rectangular shape on the ring’s back (Figure 10 & 12). This shape is the bottom of the triangular rivet. The rivet dome is a mix of the top of the triangle and the ring itself (Figure 15). The overlap is also crimped together using a detail known as the ’watershed’. Many rings in the 15th to 17th century have the watershed detail on the overlap as shown in figure 9. This detail is only used with wedge shaped rivets. By the 1500’s most European maille was using the structurally superior wedge rivet and watershed detail in lieu of the round rivet.


So... i guess it's not too bad that the Ulfberth mail shown above doesn't have a watershed?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andris Auzins




Location: Riga, Latvia
Joined: 29 Nov 2007

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:

If I understand correctly, "watershed" means that the ring overlaps in such a way that it is completely flat. It does not mean that the rivet and the ring are almost fused together, forming a smooth bump (like in some pictures of authentic mail)?


Quite the opposite.
"Watershed" means that overlap is not flat. It is rooflike with a rivethead pointing out as a hemispheric chimney right in the middle of the overlap.

Sander Marechal wrote:

Also interesting, the article says this (emphasis mine):

Quote:
The Knight’s Chain rings are set with a wedge shaped rivet. The most obvious detail from using this style of rivet is the rectangular shape on the ring’s back (Figure 10 & 12). This shape is the bottom of the triangular rivet. The rivet dome is a mix of the top of the triangle and the ring itself (Figure 15). The overlap is also crimped together using a detail known as the ’watershed’. Many rings in the 15th to 17th century have the watershed detail on the overlap as shown in figure 9. This detail is only used with wedge shaped rivets. By the 1500’s most European maille was using the structurally superior wedge rivet and watershed detail in lieu of the round rivet.


So... i guess it's not too bad that the Ulfberth mail shown above doesn't have a watershed?


I am no expert, and my observations are not a proof. Yet I have seen no European maille ring that had completely flat overlap.

If you are really interested in rivetted rings and "watershed" effect, you should join the rivetted maille group on yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille
It is an invaluable resource for anyone interested in rivetted maille.
View user's profile Send private message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not so much interested in making it myself. I'm interested in why reproduction mail looks different then real mail.

I'm still a bit vague on the watershed. Do you perhaps have some pictures of reproduction mail that does have a watershed? E.g. Erik's mail? I find the pictures of the original mail a bit hard to interpret because... well... laying around in a bog or stuck in clay for five centuries has also had it's effect on the metal. If I know what real mail should look like when it's new, then I think I have a much better understanding.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,335

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a closeup of Erik's German wedge-riveted mail.


 Attachment: 67.48 KB
Erik-German Riveted_s.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,335

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is his reconstruction of Roman mail (round-sectioned round-riveted, alternating with punched solid links).


 Attachment: 57.83 KB
Erik-RomanRiveted_s.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Here is a closeup of Erik's German wedge-riveted mail.


Thanks for the pictures, but are you sure you posted the right picture here? That looks like flat-ring, round-rivet mail to me. Not wedge-rivet.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Here is a closeup of Erik's German wedge-riveted mail.


Thanks for the pictures, but are you sure you posted the right picture here? That looks like flat-ring, round-rivet mail to me. Not wedge-rivet.


Sander, Sander, Sander...

You asked for photos showing the "watershed"

Round rivet is historical, the wedge rivet is a later 14th century development (if memory serves me correctly ) and it did not completely replace round rivet mail production in period.

Now for the punch line....

You wear maille with the peaned rivet outward, good wedge rivet peaned looks like round rivet peaned. Wink

The piece in the photo would have to be flipped over the see the wedge.

In closing, don't let Dan drive you nuts, I'm happy with my modern riveted maille as it's lighter than my old butted shirt and looks better. While I do WMA along with Living History , nobody is really trying to kill me with period weapons so the rivets hold just fine, but...

Dan is correct on this issue and it's nice to be able to discuss in a Living History setting on "why" my maille is closer than butted, but nowhere near historically correct. (I've been waiting for years for Dan to offer to buy me a shirt made by Erik so I can be correct, but at this point I've given up hope Worried Wink )

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
View user's profile Send private message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Teague wrote:
You wear maille with the peaned rivet outward


I knew that...

Quote:
good wedge rivet peaned looks like round rivet peaned. Wink


...but I didn't knew that. Thanks!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,527

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Scott Moore wrote:
I may have been misinformed, but wouldn't treating Galvanized Mail release extremely toxic chemicals? heat treatment is the kind of treatment you were referring to, right?


I think you are right and there was a thread created here by Patrick Kelly that detailed how he dealt with that problem during a do it yourself project. That thread might be five years old now, but it was here.

And on futher reading in the thread was helpfully linked to several posts below the post I responded to. Eek!

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
View user's profile Send private message
Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey guyz,
I wanted throw in my opinion too. I have been lookin around at historical maille and this is my opinion. I feel that true accuracy is an unattainable goal, even if each and every item is made from scratch (trying to adhere to what we know in terms of construction technique) using all period tools and materials, we still will not have something 100% accurate. So I feel like we must content ourselves with not being perfectly accurate, but do our best to get as close as we can. If we simply go with the idea, "It's never going to be accurate, lets go for what we feel like." we end up with people wearing T-shirts and butted aluminum maille. If someone strives for accuracy it is better, is it not? Let's say one person goes and makes a kyrtle utilizing a pattern from an archeological find, 100% wool, hand-sewn, and with a historical colour, it will be very very close to being accurate, but it may not have been hand dyed with woad and hand woven. It will look almost right, but not be 100% accurate. Now compare that to a person that takes some bright blue, stretch cotton, and machine sews it into a vague medieval-esque tunic. Doesn't the first person look better?
The same principle applied to maille in this thread could also be applied to blades. Take, for example, the Albion Brescia Spadona, it's a very nice sword, however the steel was not made in a historical furnace, the leather grip has string under it when it shouldn't...etc...etc... Even my Patrick Barta sword was not perfect. Perfection is unattainable, frankly I am sure even Erik's maille is not 100% perfect. Nothing ever will be perfectly accurate, thus I feel that each person should do his or her best to get as accurate as he or she can. If the best he can do is Indian mail, than that is the best he can do, and a well made mild steel riveted shirt is a lot closer to being accurate than say butted aluminum mail.
Z

p.s. guys, to contrast the pics of Erik’s maille I attatched some of the same type of Indian maille



 Attachment: 21.04 KB
flat riveted maille.jpg
Flat riveted maille

 Attachment: 31.81 KB
roman mail close up.jpg
Round rivited and flat solid "Roman" maille
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,335

PostPosted: Thu 11 Mar, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't particulary care what type of mail people buy. The Indian mail has plenty of uses and is lighter and stronger than the butted stuff people used to wear. My problem is when people try and claim that it has any relevance to the mail that was worn historically - hence the title of this thread.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan,

Reenactment use does not bother me to a certain extent as there is a real need for people to get into mail for the medieval period and my guess is only a fraction of reenactors could afford Erik's mail shirts. The lack of men (and women) wearing mail in many cases really ruins the general look that should be present in especially late medieval events. My goal eventually is to have a nice shirt made by Erik but I'm still a long ways off at the moment. For me Indian mail is heads and shoulders better than the butted stuff that still is everywhere. I did buy a heavier suit of Indian mail and have replaced a few loose rivets but am happy with it in general. It's links size and design and rivets work for my time period close enough and has a nice grey-black look that reminds me of several period suits in look though as you point out performance likely would be lacking... I spent enough on this that I likely will not try to find out on purpose.

The use for testing is indeed an issue for the same reasons you posted. I agree 100% there is little reason to try testing on such mail suits.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This has been a great thread. But.............I do have to thrown down a comment. I have both butted round ring mild steel and the made in India riveted flat ring. IMHO it is not always a clear cut case that the riveted is always better even if it looks better from 10 feet away. Depends on the application (fighting vs re-enactment vs living history). There can be problems with the Indian riveted mail because the rings themselves seem to be punched out of sheet, then cut , overlapped and riveted. Often the rings are very sharp. I had a haugergeon of 9mm 3,4 years ago - and it was ridiculous sharp. I can't tell you how many times I cut the bridge of my nose, or the top of my forehead or my hands with that haubergeon. I had people cut themselves on that thing just by coming up to pat me on the shoulder. Many of the rivets also fell out. Every time I pulled it out I would notice a few more rivets in the bottom of the pillowcase I stored it in. I got rid of it. I did eventually replace it with a 6mm haubergeon which seems to be a lot better although you still have to careful with it taking it on and off and it too has lost a fair number of rivets (good luck finding the empty rivet holes on a 6mm shirt - talk about needle in a haystack!).

I have known people who have gone "all out" on hand sewn linen clothes arming garments and hose etc, only to have their $1000 super cool and accurate undergarments completely shredded by that Indian made mail in two, three, outings.

As for playing around or fighting in mail, as David said, I don't have people actually trying to skewer me dead with a sharp, or shoot a bodkin into me so for certain applications I prefer butted round - e.g. for my mail skirt. The flat ring riveted skirts I have tried have all just shredded and scratched the hell out of everything underneath it. OTOH I have that 6mm flat riveted stuff for living history, because I admit, it does look more accurate within about 10 feet or so. I just got hold of some 9mm voiders and they seem not too bad although I have not tried them out yet. My point is that I think the quality on that Indian made mail can vary a lot. tr
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,208

PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:

The use for testing is indeed an issue for the same reasons you posted. I agree 100% there is little reason to try testing on such mail suits.

RPM


Well one can test to see how well the modern maille can resist damage and it might give a very very general idea about what to expect. ( Testing the modern stuff for practical reasons and checking on it's quality or lack of quality for " modern " use, durability etc ... ).

Easily assuming that the period maille was way superior in protective qualities it can give a base line minimum of what to expect: Lets say the modern riveted maille is almost impossible to pierce with as word cut or thrust, or a spear thrust then it would mean that the period maille would be expected to be even harder to damage.

If the modern maille is compromised it says even less about what period could resist.

Now, these casual tests are a problem, and I understand Dan's annoyance when way too much undeserved credibility is given very unscientific tests.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do have to agree with both sides of the argument here. I do respect that most maille used by reenactors and such is not 100% historical. But as has been stated, this is in fact unattainable w/o stealing from a museum or private collection. I believe that it is worthwhile to attain riveted maille for living history or educational purposes.
A favorite maxim of mine is "Even if perfection is unattainable, there is no reason to hope for the best and try anyway." same philosophy.

anyway, is the german ulfbert flat-ring stuff sharp? I plan on buying a set of that.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Sun 14 Mar, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
anyway, is the german ulfbert flat-ring stuff sharp? I plan on buying a set of that.


I can tell you next week. Next sunday there's a fair in The Netherlands and there's a shop there that sells Ulfberth mail. I don't know if they will bring it to the fair but if they do, I'll have a look.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mark T




PostPosted: Sun 14 Mar, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Quote:
anyway, is the german ulfbert flat-ring stuff sharp? I plan on buying a set of that.


I can tell you next week. Next sunday there's a fair in The Netherlands and there's a shop there that sells Ulfberth mail. I don't know if they will bring it to the fair but if they do, I'll have a look.


Sander, that would be great. It sounds like many folks here would love to be moving towards 'slightly less inaccurate' mail, so to start getting some knowledge and discernment about the various manufacturers' offerings would be very useful.

Anyone else got any reflections on which makes of mail are sharp and which aren't? I don't want to take the thread too off-topic, but questions like this are relevant to people looking for 'less inaccurate' mail and seem to be at the heart of this discussion ...
View user's profile Send private message
Bruce Tordoff
Industry Professional




Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 120

PostPosted: Sun 14 Mar, 2010 5:50 pm    Post subject: Rivetted mail         Reply with quote

"but there is a scale of authenticity. "

I have to agree with Zac's comment,
its kind of like, "Let him without innacuracy cast the first stone." The thing is, as someone else pointed out, it kind of depends on what you intend to use said piece of re-created armour (or indeed weaponry) for. Yes if you have a scientific, metallurgical or academic reason for wanting to "Accurately" re-produce an item then fair enough, I myself am a re enactor, who owns simple butted mail, indeed I believe, from India, however I am more than capable and willing to impart this info to a curious spectator, whilst explaining the methods of construction of the original and the materials used.

The thing is, Whilst my fellow re-enactment group members and I, strive to achieve high standards of Authenticity, non of us have dysentary, or ground down teeth from eating bread containing grit from the quernstone. Neither do we have headlice, or live in smoke filled hovels. So where do we draw the line in terms of 'Authenticity'

Essentially, there has to be a 'Scale of Authenticity', where common sense prevails. The knowledge and discretion of the items owner should dictate the level of 'Inaccuracy' tolerable for the specific given situation. What is an acceptable standard for a museum or lecture full of academic historians may not be for an audience of 10year olds and vice versa.


Bruce
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > "Riveted" does not equal "Historical"
Page 2 of 7 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum