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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Thu 04 Mar, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
You should check the National Museum of Transylvanian History in Cluj (their page is under re - construction)
http://www.museum.utcluj.ro/
and
Brukenthal Museum in Sibiu (arms and armors section).
http://www.brukenthalmuseum.ro/
Also You should check National Military Museum in Bucharest.
http://www.defense.ro/muzeumilitar/index.html



Thanks for the links Romulus
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Rudolf M.




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 27 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 04 Mar, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Clothes         Reply with quote

I think the reconstruction (the older man)is in fact just copied picture from this,check the hat.
And also few others similar pictures.
Anyway this is not XV. maybe end of XV. because this is from the Burgmaier engraving 1512.(Second man from left).
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Thu 04 Mar, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello

I'll post some pics from a reprinted Mátyás Graduale kodex (armours, clothing) and some early hussar pisc on saturday. Sadly I have to work now Worried

The hungarians didn't wear ottoman kalpags. They came into the C. Basin in "süveg"-s, wich were worn with little changes over the centuries untill the early 1900's.

Zoltán
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
Hello

I'll post some pics from a reprinted Mátyás Graduale kodex (armours, clothing) and some early hussar pisc on saturday. Sadly I have to work now Worried

The hungarians didn't wear ottoman kalpags. They came into the C. Basin in "süveg"-s, wich were worn with little changes over the centuries untill the early 1900's.

Zoltán


Hi Zoltán ,

Graduale would be great, it's a fascinating piece of work ...
As to those kalpaks , I used to held the same opinion as you (Magyars having their own head-wear since their arrival to Carpathian basin) though this picture convinced me that at least some had wore them (note the rider in the upper-right corner, while the rest of them have the Balkan fur hat , he seems to have a kalpak-proper ;feel free to correct me in case I'm wrong though, I'm far from being an expert as far as head-wear is concerned)




Breu, Jörg the elder , cca 1530 "10 Hungarian lancers" retrieved via

http://www.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/B/Breu,+J%C3%B...ungarische

looking forward to your pictures Happy

Regards
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello

I'll continue and edit tomorrow.

Zoltán



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img152.jpg
The second battle of Augsburg (Lechfield), 955, on the Ulrich-crucifix:-) from 1492.

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img172.jpg


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Hungarian barons in the Mathias-Graduale, Folio 7. recto [ Download ]

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One and a half hand swords, 15 th C., Hungary. or hungarian barons in the Graduale:-) [ Download ]

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[ Download ]


Last edited by Henrik Zoltan Toth on Tue 09 Mar, 2010 3:34 am; edited 3 times in total
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Outstanding Zoltan !

could you name the source of the pictures? The book seems lovely. Also what other sources (mainly picture heavy books) would you recommend on our region in terms of arms and armour of the 15th and early 16th century ?

On a side note... judging from the last pic you uploaded it seems that the 19th century repro-painting by Handmann Adolf of Pál Kinizsi's sword is accurate



via http://mek.niif.hu/00800/00893/html/doc/c400295.htm

Its quite an odd one , it seems to have a straight double edged blade mounted on a riveted hilt similar to that of a messer family (you can see the holes on the hilt on the picture you uploaded)... ,
I have seen a similar piece on a drawing from Hans Kulmbach (1507–1510) depicting a landsknecht



retrieved via
http://www.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/B/Kulmbach,+Ha...andsknecht

I'm looking forward for more Wink
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Certenly. Tomorrow. I know I'm little bit late. I'm lazy.

I know a drawing made by Dürer (born in the H. kingdom) about the hungarian hussar weapons. I hope I 'll found it.

Zoltán
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
Certenly. Tomorrow. I know I'm little bit late. I'm lazy.

I know a drawing made by Dürer (born in the H. kingdom) about the hungarian hussar weapons. I hope I 'll found it.

Zoltán



Don't sweat it we all are lazy in one way or another Big Grin Wink


about the Dürer drawing of hussar equipment (his father was from upper Hungary wasn't he?), the only thing I seem to remember comes from the famous Triumph of Maximilian:



note the balkan fur-hat , the composite (turkish) bow , quiver with arrows , also part of the Balkan "wing" shield is visible , as is a nice little sabre with somewhat shorter quillons
(the picture is dated 1518 and is titled "a trophy from Hungary")

you can see the piece in its full beauty here :
http://www.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/B/D%C3%BCrer,+...ungarische
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Marton Pap




Location: Hungary
Joined: 16 Jan 2006

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marton Pap wrote:


Hey Marton , splendid find !

Its one of those unpublished Dürer drawings iirc. One problem with it is that it is supposed to depict an old Magyar conquest-era hero , rather than a "contemporary" Hungarian soldier/nobleman. There is also another reproduction of it coming from 1517




That said his coat is more eastern in character, than what a late15/early 16th century Hungarian nobleman would wore and seems more similar to eastern fashions of Crimean Tatars and Muscovy Boyars (compare it also with the shirt that I've posted from the 1518 Dürer picture)




16th century Muscovy horseman via
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...entury.PNG

Another thing to point out is the lack of the "winged"-shield , that was rather typical of the early hussars(but than again its supposed to be an old honfoglalás-era cavalryman). On the other hand the sabre from the pic you posted seems quite accurate , note the similarly shortish cross-guard as on the 1518 picture (it seem to have been quite popular in the late 1400s and early 1500s, than replaced by more longer almost longsword-style one).

Coming back to the overall costume of the 15th century Hungarian nobleman.... there is a pretty little website that has scans from a Czech book by Wagner , Zbran zbroj a kostým doby husitské a predhusitské (Clothing , arms and armour of the hussite and pre-hussite era)
http://www.kazi.webz.cz/wagner/kroj_cast2.html (Rudolf you might be interested in this as the captions are in Czech, I will translate the most relevant ones)

here we go , Hungarian civilian clothing - number 1. old magyar style 2. 13th century nobleman 3. 14th century 4. 15th century


Hungarian civilian clothing from the middle of the 15th century



These styles are already covered (and a bit irrelevant) but nevertheless .. noblemen from 1490-1525 period

Number 3 is marked as "a warrior from the end of the 15th century" , however the fella is remarkably similar to the hungarian noblemen from the Triumph of Maximilian (cca 1520s)

And a bonus picture at the end.. I seem to found another early hussar cca 1500 (duh again!) on my hdd (don't really remember the source) it is apparently some sort of a drawing on a belt or some such:



Regards,
Samuel
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I got some other pics, enjoy:

Zoltán

(hard to edit the file comments:-)



 Attachment: 160.96 KB
The sabre above; first half of the 16.th C. [ Download ]

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The sabre of Ferdinand of Tirol, 1514.
These typ of sabre (the hilt) became common in the first half of the 16 th. Cent.
[ Download ]

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Tárcsa-shield, 15.th. Cent. [ Download ]

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Prince Maximilian in the Weiskunig, hungarian clothes, arms.; hungarian hussars, middle of the 16 th. Cent. [ Download ]

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The Banderium, Kassa/Kosice, St. Elisabeth-altar [ Download ]
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
I got some other pics, enjoy:

Zoltán

(hard to edit the file comments:-)


Hah you bet ! Big Grin

Excellent Zoltán, just excellent !

The Ferdinand of Tirol sabre is especially drop-dead gorgeous, it seems that the type (with its long qullions and a somewhat squarish pommel cap) was quite popular even into the 1570s (than replaced by the more famous "polish-hungarian" type , with shorter quillons and the typical round-flat pommel cap). It definitely looks like it was meant for someone of higher social strata and also very much reminds me of some gilded sabres from the battle of orsha painting.

Since we touched upon the 16th century as well I am going to share something from my home-town of Bardejov (Bártfa in Hungarian, the pictures are my own work)

effigy of an anonymous knight , early 16th century:



the effigy of György Serédy ( cca 1557 , according to http://vmek.niif.hu/01900/01911/html/index989.html ) apologies for the overall shininess




close-up on his sabre (don't ask me what the raised middle-finger means... I have no idea; do note however the similarity with the sabre Zoltán posted)



Enjoy as well

Edit : isn't Ferdinand of Tirol this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_II,_Archduke_of_Austria ...as such isn't the dating on the gilded sabre a bit odd (1514?), seems a bit early to me considering the fact he was born in 1529 (iirc he was a great admirer and patron of hussars during his lifetime) ,or mayhap the weapon is older then himself.. what do you think ?
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://kultura.katolikus.hu/kepek/2009/nagy/m...amadas.jpg

(Master MS: Resurrection; 1506)

http://muvtor.btk.ppke.hu/etalon2/2547.jpg

Holy László and the kuman, 1400's; Székelyderzs, Transylwania.



Zoltán



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HPIM7354.JPG
KIng Sigismund and his soldiers; Kolozsvári Tamás; 1427, Garamszentbenedek, Slowakia (old Upper-Hungary)

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HPIM7353.JPG
Three mail saints of the Árpád-Dynastie; 1400's, Belényes; Bihar, Transylwania.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ferdinand or an erlier Ferdinand??)of Tirol got a realy nice "white" (or silvern) Hussar tournment armour, the golden sabre above was his own, too.
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the pictures Zoltan , excellent as usual !
(the Szent Laszlo frescoes are a favourite of mine; he and his lady-friend are always giving a hard time to that Kunish man Big Grin )

Going back to Ferdinand of Tirol (I still don't know which one is it actually) do you mayhap have a picture of that silver hussar armour? Sounds interesting. I remember reading something about Turkish-style tournaments at the early 16th century imperial court, thus mayhap its connected in some way.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

last week i bought a facsimile of "weiss kunig", a book first printed in ca. 1515 about maximillian I. (during his lifetime)
i`ll see if there`s something about hungarian armour of the period. i could imagine so, `cause it also includes his father, emporer ferdinand III. during which`s reign vienna was taken by corvinus.

maybe i also can spend some time on a trip to castle ambras in innsbruck, where ferdinand II. of tirol lived, `cause during his reign hungarian clothing and armour in the "hungarian style" became quite popular.
i specially remember the shields from my last visit, called "tartsche" here, (sounds like english targe), also used at tournaments.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 1:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It was Ferdinand of Tirol. Yep, I have a pic, just got to find it. :-)

Zoltán
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though entitled Polish Rider, this great painting by Rembrandt may help.


 Attachment: 59.88 KB
2 rembrandt polish rider.jpg


Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello

Ok, he wasn't.

The photos are from the "Leib.Rüst.Kammer 2." (Kunsthistorisches Museum; Waffensamlung II)

The original sabre and tárcsa were lost.

I have a book (Reflexbogen), there are nice pics from the Weisskunig. (like the one with the mounted archer Maximilian.)

Zoltán



 Attachment: 148.32 KB
[ Download ]
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gottfried P. Doerler wrote:
last week i bought a facsimile of "weiss kunig", a book first printed in ca. 1515 about maximillian I. (during his lifetime)
i`ll see if there`s something about hungarian armour of the period. i could imagine so, `cause it also includes his father, emporer ferdinand III. during which`s reign vienna was taken by corvinus.

maybe i also can spend some time on a trip to castle ambras in innsbruck, where ferdinand II. of tirol lived, `cause during his reign hungarian clothing and armour in the "hungarian style" became quite popular.
i specially remember the shields from my last visit, called "tartsche" here, (sounds like english targe), also used at tournaments.


I think that would help immensely Gotfried !. IIRC one of the character in weiss kunig is depicted in hungarian hussar garb. As to the word "tartsche" it it indeed very similar to English , but also to Hungarian , Polish , Czech and Slovak version of the word "target".

Sa'ar Nudel wrote:
Though entitled Polish Rider, this great painting by Rembrandt may help.


Its a marvellous painting indeed. However one should put in mind that it comes from the 17th century during which the Poles had evolved fashions of their own ( which were a combination of previous Hungarian fashions with later adoptions of eastern slavic, armenian , tatar etc. styles, iirc the young gentleman is a Polish Kozak or some such.)

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:

The photos are from the "Leib.Rüst.Kammer 2." (Kunsthistorisches Museum; Waffensamlung II)

The original sabre and tárcsa were lost.

I have a book (Reflexbogen), there are nice pics from the Weisskunig. (like the one with the mounted archer Maximilian.)


Many thanks again Zoltan.
That winged target sure looks wicked (note the dramatic upward sweeping curve). Also I wouldnt mind seeing some of those pictures from the Reflexbogen book. Wink
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