[Maurizio D'Angelo]

Markus,
you do not worry, with a terrible English, I am in good company.

Grüße

[Markus A]

but neverless one should consider any weapon used in such an thunderstorm of iron should be able to harm any foe.
and swords where used at TOWTON BATTLE too
this was such an battle
the skeleton showed wounds by cutting as trusting traumatas.
some skulls often 6-9 wounds.
one asks if all had been lost already their helmets had never one?or where executed as prisoners of war????
in the report of the weaponry used at towton the wounds alone show that nearly 90 percent of all wound where made by edged weapons.
so its very sure that in this battle the main bulk of man fought with swords
and not with mace hammers ect
only an minor percentage of skull wounds on the skeletons from the massgrave had received damage by mace hamers ect
if you use this weapon in an tight packed rank and file you have to slash at an opponent and so the vulnerable armpit will anytime opposed when one clobber an adversary..... often you have not enough room to use an hammer or axe to full effect.the sword can always used as trusting instrument without open your defence

[Chad Arnow]

[Dan Howard]

Every time this subject comes up someone eventually points to this
http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html

A "world record" cut against a helmet.

A 500 year old helmet was placed at waist height on a rigid surface and was cut by a master swordsman wielding a blade that was specifically made for the task using a technique that would never have been employed in battle (i.e. the test was HEAVILY biased against the armour) and the best he could do was a shallow 13cm gash that wouldn't have scratched the scalp of someone who was wearing it.

You can't cut or stab through solid plate armour with a sword. Just can't be done.

The commonly cited explaination for the Towton injuries is that they were executed after the battle. The bodies were not found near the battlefield and no armour was found with the bodies.

Wisby is better example since the bodies were buried at the site of the battle along with their armour. Not a single injury on these bodies was on the torso where body armour would have been worn. There is evidence of head injuries through mail coifs but these were not done with swords. The majority of wounds is on the legs and arms where no armour was worn.

[Markus A]

hello
the TOWTON-not yelled-dead individuals had numerous wounds on the skulls.cuts as stabs.clearly made by swords.even if one considers they where routed while fleeing the field and smacked down from horseback,they might have tossed away their helmet.even if i doubt that an good sitting sallet shall hinder an man running.when i flee the field i rund and do not waste time opening the chinstarp nestling at the buckle with flying fingers and then toss away the hel.i would not run faster without helmet.and at this date i think even rank an file had at least humble head devenses.of soemtimes crude forms but neverless an protection of head.
one may still say here where prisoners stripped of their armour and then slaughtered unarmoured.but the angles of the wounds on the bones show they came from above positions.so the theorie is they where killed in an rout from horseman.
maybe some still wore mailed hoods-even if utdated at this date-but common soldiers did not always wore the most modern outfits-they suffered brutal head injuries.
MARCUS Junkelmann made test with mail and even it was buttet and not rivetted in its links it split open at direct hits with the tip of an Mainz Gladius.Wile strokes where used not to effective romans delivered trusts.and even the celts did wear mail.they even where the inventors of it.
and at VISBY three coats of plate where found.in an detoriated condition.so its not an proove if the show no piercings.
first the spot with such an stab might be corroded away and the suit of paltes are very corroded with bigger parts totally missing
next maybe those three men maybe had their head smashed so why shall one trust an sword in an dead liveless person in middle of an fight?
and last because the body is protected by bones in upper region one would try to hit the stomach area.no bones here and 2 cm deep pentration would mean death.so such wound would are not to be shown on skeletal remains.
i apologize for typing in big capitals i was not aware this means yelling in an forum
so again i think its sure that swords played in battles during war of roses an main part as weapon in the field.those had stiff blades.and the main bulk of man did wear body defences.
of yourse the head is the main target simply because its the highest part and so alone first in the line of an incomming blow.
again i point out that i do not say
every stab and trust did penetrate plate.as said before i am not considering it fully imposible at all.thats all.
i admitt in an fight against an single opponent one tries to hit the vulnearble parts throat face ect.in an tight packed fight such well picked action may take to much time.and here one fights not in talhoffers sword exercise rules.here one kicks shoves hacks and uses pommel tip edge even crossguard in any manner to create damage.simply because there is not enough room to exercise this sword routines.
i would never say never-

[Luka Borscak]

[Gottfried P. Doerler]

maybe it also depends on the type and quality of the plate involved, and the size of the sword.

I`ve seen 17th century pikeman-armour, that seems to be rather black-painted paperboard then iron, i would think a big sword cuts trough them like butter. a sword like these i photographed.
and there`s this video from coldsteel, advertising their great-sword. in the end they penetrate some plate with it, seems to be the front lid of a truck or something alike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG6sP3aezco

on the other hand there`s armour so well crafted and massive, it can hardly be possible to make a scratch on it.

[Markus A]

hello i agree completly.
not all plate was first rate.and this armour from leppanto was made when already firearms where widely in use.and so at that date the plate is in any way thicker.
in times before we-or better I- should not consider the possibility that an diamond shaped blade penetrates an plate armour as impossible
i think on the albion test.without grip only hold in hand the man stabbed through the oildrum with no big problem
yes sure modern steel on blade ----------as well as on the drum
which equals in old blade versa old plate
if he can do it today why not 1400????
and some blades had an blunt ricasso could be gripped at the blade and so with to hands they could be used like an chisel.....
i thanks anyone for this interesting thread
cheers

[Artis Aboltins]

You do know the thickness of oildrum does not even begin to approach the thickness of the front of the armour? Also, the material for the oildrum is not forge made - it is not work hardened. Oildrum just stands there, it has no "give" itis not like armour at all. Also, if someone would be stupid enough to try and use sword as a chissel to open up my armour, he would be most welcome as I could use that time to kill him

[Nat Lamb]

If I post a video of me poking holes in aluminium foil using my finger, does that prove that a medieval knight could punch through plate armour?

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

That video proves nothing. A steel plate 0.7 mm
Make a hole that can kill in a steel plate of 3 mm. it takes a firearm and do not know if enough.

[Markus A]

of course the only proove would be
an modern knight aware that he is encased in solid steel
contests against an ancient warrior which used his arms for years to best avail
what would be the result
i think the modern fighter would end within some moments as kebab.......
those men did not play knight or man at arms........nor did they chop tatami wheeds
they where the orginal
some weeks ago they showed an test in german tv-----very interesting
an police trainer clad in modern outfit an master in martial arts and fit did fight an chap in orignal roman gladiator outfit.not the film crap the real stuff he was trained by german historic Marcus Junkelmann in fighting techniques and was feed over weeks with the gladiator daily nutrition.the police chap was so sure to dispatch this naked fellow with is nice littel skirt....
result was the fight lasted 45 seconds....then the modern equipped police fighter would have been....yes....dead.this shows what dynamic power ancient weapons do have

and surely they did know how to use their daily working tools to best abilties
i think thats all i could say.
again i never said any trust can pentrate
but you say NO trust can enter at any time
i think this alone sounds unlogic and not convincing
but anyone as he pleases
as we say in german
ich habe fertig
or i am all done

[Felix R.]

Why so mach talk about something you can´t proof. Just get yourself an armour you like to test your preferred sword against and give it try. Be sure to take some pictures to post on this board.

[Felix R.]

[Toke Krebs Niclasen]

What percentage of combatants at TOWTON BATTLE do you think wore full plate, and how relevant do you think it is here?

[Markus A]

jo felix is absolutly right
to much writing about things which have the same importance like of an sack rice toppling over in china
sometime one askes oneself why one looses itself in such topics maybe simply one aspect
to much time.
cheers

[Dan Howard]

[Artis Aboltins]

[Markus A]

and so one can see that the story of knights beeing heaved in full armour to horseback with an crane is not nonsense its true.if one weights an gothic suit of armour and gets 30 kilogramms we must add at least 10 kilos which have been polished away over centuries in the armoury.this is totally overlooked when one considers the climbing of knights to horseback
this goes then for swordblades as well
as gunbarrels because they are made form iron too.
i fancy this theorie
it rocks

[Artis Aboltins]