[Michael Edelson]

[P. Cha]

[Michael Edelson]

[Ken Speed]

Felix, thank you, the TV show is very enlightening. I have to admit that it really bothers me to see swords, knives, wood chisels, anything like that tested to destruction. I probably understood about one word in fifty, not enough in other words, but the actions largely speak for themselves.

I know some or all of this could be faked or biased. It could have been a very low quality Japanese sword used in the destruction demo and it could have been trick photography showing the swords slicing the tomatoes but absent any motivation to fake things I'm prepared to accept what I saw as fairly, if not completely, accurate.

I have to say that I think this discussion topic, as it has been put forward here, is deeply flawed. It must be very difficult to compare the cutting ability of a one handed sword with that of a two handed sword in a meaningful way. It has to something like comparing the force generated by a tennis racket with the force of a baseball bat.

However the mental image of a battle hardened Viking warrior being beset by a pack of enraged pool noodles is one that will stay with me for a while! LOL!!

[David Teague]

[P. Cha]

[Michael Edelson]

Hello David,

Yes, I do defend cutting whenever I see someone, usually someone who cannot cut well, unfairly generalize and denigrate test cutting. No period source tells us we should cut tatami, but they tell us we should cut people, which tatami is used to simulate. If you have a better simulator, do share, I've used them all and find tatami works best.

Let's see these devices you claim were not used in period. I'd like to see some examples.

You seem to make the assumption that people like me, who like to cut, only advocate one type of cut all the time. I do not shun the tag hits the way some people seem to shun the full cuts. Too bad Liechtenauer didn't see fit to put that in the text as well, but that tells us he probably didn't have to.

It helps, when looking at cutting videos, to understand what you're looking at. Cutting videos show a specific type of cut, a full cut designed to cleave, sever or otherwise inflict massive damage. Most such videos do not show "tag hits" or other smaller cuts designed to do different things.

This does not mean that people who make cutting videos do not use such cuts.

Yes, as I have said many many times, including this thread, the katana is generally a better cutter than a longsword or single hand European sword. This does not mean that such European swords cannot cut well, or that some artificial "get you killed" devices need to be added. I add no such devices. I drill and fight like I cut, and I teach my students to do the same. Drills, free play and cutting, these are the core of our curriculum, and I feel removing any one of the three weakens the whole. You are free to disagree.

[Michael Edelson]

[Ken Speed]

Devices? What devices? What kind of devices are you guys talking about? I truly don't know.

[Chad Arnow]

Folks, let's not get grouchy in this thread. It's not worth it.

[David Teague]

Hello Michael,

A-ha! Just as I thought.

I'm not talking about you, or your test cutting vids. It's not about yooooou

Also, please get it out of your head that I think a western sword won't cut. It does and can.

My viewpointis from movement within play where every cut can not be a show stopper as the fact is, your opponent is trying their best to counter your sword in defense.

I'm not sure why I can't make this point with you.

I'm going to try one last time.

Yes, I think it's great to be able to cut though mats cleanly, it show proper edge alignment and slicing movement. All students of a sword style should learn how to do just that as PART of their training. They should be able to do it without adding risky power generator such as cocking the sword back (in measure) or bring the sword around in a 360 deg arc (in measure) if their opponent's sword is not suppressed. Otherwise they are setting themselves up for a surprise.

Now, in period play (since we don't fight with sharps anymore) the opportunity would come in play (sometimes) for that show stopper cut (such as with "traveling after") where you could lop off body parts with glee. My viewpoint is the effects of the "other" cuts that could happen, the deep hack to a bicep, the slice to the temple et al, things that are part of the system and show up far more in plates than that Talhoffer plate you always pony up in your defense.

So, maybe, just maybe you get "it' this time. I don't disagree with you at al. I'm not complaining about your vids when I post about modern artifacts. I just have a viewpoint that looks at what the wounding cuts do, and how in our system, it's kill them, and kill them again, and keep killing them til they fall down. That how I teach my students, we don't stop at the first cut.

David

[Colt Reeves]

Concerning that German TV show clip, would I be right in believing that the katana's harder edge was "cut" through and then the softer backside simply bent? I assume so, but you know what they say about assuming...

About the improving of a katana's edge for cutting, I understood that they were making the whole thing thinner and giving the edge a gentler slope. This works great for slicing through soft objects, since it's like a giant razor blade, but hitting something hard can seriously trash the edge. "Normal" katanas, on the other hand, have a certain blend between durability and cutting ability. However, this is merely my interpetation and I have been known to be wrong before, so take this with a pound of salt. Regardless, I think the point was supposed to be that a katana isn't perfect, and that it can be modified to better fit certain conditions.


Edit: I take too long writing my posts apparently, since several other people just posted before I finished writing...

[Michael Edelson]

David,

I get all your points, I really do. Here are mine: we disagree on the mechanics of an entry cut. I think most cuts should be done with the intent to cut through. If you stop me, we are in a bind and I am in langen ort and then all the other plays come in. If you don't, you're either dead, or you voided and I am in wechselhut and you try to nachreisen and then all those plays come in. You seem to think that you should aim for langen ort...correct me if I'm wrong. It's fine to disagree on this point and it has nothing to do with cutting.

We do not disagree that the sword should not be cocked back in measure. However, I am a firm believer that the sword can and often should be cocked backing during the approach while still out of measure, the closer to "just out of measure" the better. I am far from the only one that feels this way (e.g. the MEMAG guys like to pull back to zornhut while just out of measure...and their cuts are strong and true and there is no tempo to exploit). This disagreement is fine, and not really a factor in this disucssion.

I believe STRONGLY that every HEMA practicioner must cut, or their art is missing a crucial component. This is why I defend cutting, both good and even mediocre cutting, vehemently. When someone is first learning to cut, their cutting will stink or be mediocre at best. Discouraging people during this phase of their training is very bad, in my opinion, for the art as a whole. Whether you mean to do this or not, this is what I think yours posts do.

[Felix R.]

[Patrick Kelly]

David and Michael,

It seems as if you two are diving off into an entirely different tangent than the original "curved v. straight" issue of this thread. Since that original argument is specious enough in itself, might I suggest you create another thread to house the point you're discussing. If you can stay civil I think it might have some actual educational benefit.

Just a thought.

[Michael Edelson]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Michael Edelson]

[J. Scott Moore]

[J. Scott Moore]

I should have added, that I cannot disagree that cutting exercises are beneficial to any blade oriented art form. comparing which blade cuts better is like deciding what style to use. for instance, one pistol might be more accurate than another, but is substantially weaker in firepower. choose the right tool for the job. if you want to learn WMA, then learn WMA, if you want to learn EMA, then learn EMA. Like I said, I could be misunderstanding the purpose of this topic, and I could have totally just made a total jerk of myself, but be that as it may.