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Eric Hejdström
Location: Visby, Sweden Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 184
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 Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2010 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Eric Hejdström wrote: | | Sean, I'm sorry I don't have abetter photo of the sword with the C-shaped quillon. I'll remember it next time! I have a few nice photos from Fornsalen here in Visby but due to legal issues I'm not allowed to publish them online in any form. I'll dig into it the the museum staff next time I talk to them, I think you'll find some more interesting stuff there. |
You might be able to make a drawing from the photograph and be able to show that without any ethical issues as the " artwork/drawing " would be your own work ? But I would understand if you felt that this was going against the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. |
That is certainly posible, but I don't know if I have the time. However I will try to get hold of the museum tomorrow and ask if I can post the picture here. Otherwise I'll try to get a drawing done during the weekend.
I'm really thrilled to see more people interested in my favourite type of sword!
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Sean Flynt
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Eric Hejdström
Location: Visby, Sweden Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 184
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting swords, Eric! My guess would be more towards 14th century - after all, there seems to be increase in longr blades in 14th century, compared to 13th. Then again, Gotland had been a rather prominent trading place at that period so would not be surprising to find the most "advanced" equipment avaliable at this time frame to be found there, earlier than most other places in the area.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 4:48 am Post subject: |
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I remember seeing these swords during a study visit to Visby many years ago.
I would also agree they are of 14th C date. The one with latten/bronze pommel could be very early 14th C (or late 13th C?).
It is interesting to note that the reference for very long grips is an early trend in scandinavia.
There certainly seems to be more long gripped swords preserved here than in other regions.
I would suspect there are international influences and parallels. Looking at altar pieces that were exported from northern germany to sweden, there are plenty of long gripped swords depicted there.
The type XVIIIe that is so famously present in the danish (and swedish) material does seem to have some popularity in Italy as well at the same time. Possibly also in other regions.
I attach an image (not sure of origin, but it seems to be dated to mid/late 15th C).
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Apart from more "fancy" work on the hilt this painting shows a sword that is very close to the type common in Denmark
Last edited by Peter Johnsson on Fri 22 Jan, 2010 5:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Artis Aboltins wrote: | | Very interesting swords, Eric! My guess would be more towards 14th century - after all, there seems to be increase in longr blades in 14th century, compared to 13th. Then again, Gotland had been a rather prominent trading place at that period so would not be surprising to find the most "advanced" equipment avaliable at this time frame to be found there, earlier than most other places in the area. |
That is a reasonable thought.
... but I have found long gripped swords in museums in other parts of Sweden that are also of an early date. It seems this kind of sword was popular not only on Gotland, but in other regions of Sweden at the same time.
They do not have the extreme grip length as those later examples, but still longer than is normally the case with swords of this type.
Below are three examples (late 13th/early 14th C?) from two different museums, mainland Sweden:
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Intriguing, Peter! What is the aproximate length of the blades of the swords on the pictures you posted?
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Sean Flynt
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: |
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-Artis: the length varies just like on other swords of this type. They can be from 85 to 95 cm long. Or longer in some cases.
It is the same kind of variation you find elsewhere with these blade types: XIIa, XIIIa and XVII. Some are really big, others are of a length that can be seen on long single hand swords.
-Sean: Only glad to add to the mix! It will be interesting to see what you make of your project.
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Sean Flynt
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Eric Hejdström
Location: Visby, Sweden Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I remember seeing these swords during a study visit to Visby many years ago.
I would also agree they are of 14th C date. The one with latten/bronze pommel could be very early 14th C (or late 13th C?). |
Peter, have you seen the other pommels in the archive that are similar to that one? I found a few and noticed that several of them are hollow.. Now, bronze is a tad bit heavier than iron but not to the extent that this should be reason enough to make them hollow. They are quite small too.
Sean, I promise to post some pictures here as soon as I get the project going! Its a Del Tin 2158 that's going to get a new look. I want to make the blade narrower and more agressive point. I also intend to move the quillon a bit to even further increase the griplength. The ricasso is also a goner. Hopefully I will be done before the summer. I still haven't decided on grip construction. Any suggestions?
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Eric Hejdström
Location: Visby, Sweden Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 184
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric Hejdström wrote: |
Peter, have you seen the other pommels in the archive that are similar to that one? I found a few and noticed that several of them are hollow.. Now, bronze is a tad bit heavier than iron but not to the extent that this should be reason enough to make them hollow. They are quite small too.
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Bronze pommels of this type are as a rule hollow (or should I say are often hollow?). Wall thickness is a few millimeters, so their weight will not do much for the balance of the sword. This may be the intention, or they could have been filled with lead resulting in a pommel much heavier than its size suggest. I cannot say.
This kind of pommel was pretty common in the 13th and 14th C. They often go together with type XII, XIIIa, or type XIIIa/b blades.
Loose pommels of this kind are often found on storage shelves in local museums all over Sweden. I do not think they were Swedish per se. I have just come across them a lot while looking for other things.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Eric, those are nice ones from Göteborg Museum!
They are representative in that the have some of the common features you see again and again with these late 15th and early 16th C swords:
Pommel is a small scent stopper of very distinctive shape (most are very much the same: a bit drawn out and small in size) or a flattened sphere (sometimes just round or else with octagonal section when seen from the rivet).
The guard is downward curving, pretzel shaped or C shaped (sometimes both downward curving and C shaped: I think I know at least four swords with this type of cross)
One those from mid 15th to early 16th C date, the blade is often broad at the base, but has a distinctive taper to a sharp point. They can be of diamond section, hexagonal section or lenticular section (although these were probably type XXII to begin with but has had all distinctive features rusted away). Blade types are often broad based and pointy versions of XVIa, XIIa or XXII.
Those with long blades of 90 cm or more seldom have grips that are a third of total length, instead close to a quarter of total length or there about.
Grips are of sturdy section. Often bound with iron wire in repeated sections. This wire is sometimes the only part of the grip that survives.
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think this cross is very beautiful and elegant. It'd be harder for me to make, but I prefer it to the more robust forms with dragon-head terminals. I have a pommel that might work for this, too, but if the "mandarin" pommel is appropriate with this cross, I think that would be a very attractive combination.
Eric, it sounds like our projects will be similar. My plan is to make a grip like those in my draft designs--slightly barreled in the lower half. I think a relatively straight taper would look nice, too. The robustness will depend to a great degree on the thickness of the cross.
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-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Nat Lamb
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Semi off topic, but Sean, what are you doing the draft designs on? some sort of cad program, or creative photshoping?
Love the project by the way, looks like a very interesting/attractive sword will come out of it.
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Nat Lamb wrote: | Semi off topic, but Sean, what are you doing the draft designs on? some sort of cad program, or creative photshoping?
Love the project by the way, looks like a very interesting/attractive sword will come out of it. |
Not-so-creative Photoshopping.  Just borrowing bits of various swords, slapping them together quickly to get some idea of proportions, etc. Just sketching. It's a pretty good way to tell whether something is worth pursuing.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Anders Lindkvist
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| Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 1:02 am Post subject: |
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There is also a interesting sword in the museum of Gränna, Sweden, that was found in the lake of Vättern. It has a small pommel and a unusual long grip with a very small guard. Its dated to around 1500. I have pics of the sword but not were I am right now. I do belive that Peter Johnsson have som pictures, otherwise I will post some pics later on.
My blog about history, handcrafts and reenactment.
http://kurage.wordpress.com
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, I can´t post my images of the Vättern sword. It is very similar to one of those from Göteborg: the one with partly preserved grip.
The Vättern sword had also a partly preserved scabbard with leather. Also an intact rainguard/ guard chappe/ guard leather (whatever you want to call it!) of tubular type.
A good fighting sword is my personal impression. It s not the most symmetrical of swords. The grip is of to one side by as much as half a cm. I have seen this on other swords of this type and read (Hoffmeier?) that the blades of type XXII that are common on those pretzel guard swords seem to be second rate blades from Passau. I am not sure how symmetrical these XXII were tin general. I have seen blades of this type on high quality swords of continental Europe origin that also were askew in one way or the other.
But, it is a not uncommon feature that these swords are a bit lopsided in one or several ways. I get the impression that they were made in bulk, and perhaps rather speedily.
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