Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > Yushman Project Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 24, 25, 26  Next 
Author Message
Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Thu 10 Jun, 2010 10:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@ Boris Petrov Bedrosov

You are using the term delii to name the shield, but the term is describing more a type of warrior than a piece of equipment. The word delii means insanely courageous, a man who's courage is very close to madness Happy . Those warriors were often light cavalry that were scouting the path in front of the army and raided the enemy to test it's strength, but also infantry.
As an infantry shield, the wing shield is not very suited to be used together with a sword or a sabre, because is too big, but... judging after the way the holding straps are mounted on the shield (you can see how the rivets are set if you look closely at the pictures), you can see that this shield have 3 holding positions. A long strap to put the shield over the shoulder, a strap for the arm, somewhere around the elbow and a strap for the hand.
This arrangement is suited for cavalry because a rider will need his left hand for holding the bridles (reins) of the horse, while still holding the shield over the shoulder and with the upper part of the arm. But this straps could be useful to an infantryman that is fighting with a polearm and I am thinking here about a bardiche, a weapon that could have been used by a heavy ottoman infantryman. So a heavy infantryman will need both his hands to wield a bardiche but he will still need the covering of a shield (against arrows mostly) while he will charge with insane courage towards the enemy Wink ...
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 11 Jun, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know what delii originally meant - an Ottoman berserker ...... Big Grin

If one looks at the winged shield more carefully, he will see that actually there's a resemblance between it and the kite/heater shield. Yes, I know this sounds quite weird, but it really looks like reversed kite/heater. The arrangement of the holding straps is also similar.
So, that's why I suspect that it will be quite suitable shield for infantry combat also, if its dimensions are carefully selected of course.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
János Sibinger




Location: Hungary/France
Joined: 31 May 2009

Posts: 50

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings, gentlemen!
I think that the previously mentioned winged shield is a hungarian one, since such paintjob could be observed in other examples too, like on the one in the attachment. This is a Hungarian hussar's shield from the XVIth century, kept in the Arsenal of Graz. The rivets and plates indicates the place where straps were attached to the back of the shield. This confused me, so I asked the curator about the arrangement of them. He stated that the two rivets in the front holds the grip, the two in the back holds the arm-strap, and the bottom two formed a little holder for a secondary weapon, so if the soldier lost his sword, he could have caused a surprise for his opponent, by quickly pulling out a dagger or similar weapon from the shelter of the shield. Tricky? Dishonorable? Well, a French traveller in the XVIth century wrote that he would rather trust a Turkish than a Hungarian.
But what I said was true! Wink Laughing Out Loud



 Attachment: 185.76 KB
Hussar's shield from the XVIth century. Graz, Arsenal. Sorry for the poor quality [ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is very interesting and valuable information, although it may be a little bit tricky.
Thanks, Janos!

Today I cut the shield blank (I will show pictures of the process in my next post) and made some research on arrangement of the straps and usefulness of this type of shield in infantry combat.

As I suspected before, the shield is quite useful as infantry equipment also, offering a good protection for the torso and, especially, the head and the neck.
What was really tricky (that's why I started this post with the phrase "it may be a little bit tricky") was the fact these advantages come to life if only the holding straps were arrange in the way, mentioned by Janos - alongside the short diagonal of the shield.

If the straps were placed alongside the long diagonal - from the "horn" to the opposite corner (a displacement, which I supposed was common and good for cavalry), the shield became cumbersome and heavy, and offered far less protection than in the previous case.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The shield posted by János Sibinger is a different style of wingshield, this one looks like it was designed for infantry, the straps are mounted in a different manner and the "tip" of the "wing" is much lower. The shield is also smaller than the previous posted versions. This type of shield has a tricky problem. You need to place very carefully the straps or the shield will become unbalanced and the "tip" of the "wing" (i.e. the upper right part as you look at the front of the shield ) will tend to act as a lever when you will try and block a blow, making very hard to controll the shield when the blow is comming downwards from the left (i.e. from the users point of vue). In the begining of our reenactment group we have made two shields of this type and we haven' t enough experience with strap setting then, so both of hem are unbalanced and unpleasant to use.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hisham Gaballa




PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found this 19th century German picture of a group of 17th-18th century Turkish soldiers. The man the left with a mace is holding a rectangular shield, I assume that this is either a misinterpretation of a wingshield, or a wingshield variant which is almost rectangular.

http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE67BX.HTML
View user's profile Send private message
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 12:14 pm    Post subject: The Shield - Continue         Reply with quote

And as I promised, some pictures from today

The blank is taken off the shield-press and the contоurs were drawn



Bellow the blank is another on-going project - a Roman scutum.

The shield is cut



and is covered with the first layer of fabric -



in this case - heavy cotton, which will be followed by second layer of heavy linen.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: winged shield         Reply with quote

Fine discussion gents and nice work Boris!

As to the question of wing-shields being used by footmen , i came across an interesting picture:


Don't know the author or date but it looks like one of those 16th century Ottoman miniatures. You can clearly see the infantry using them. One thing to keep in mind is that there was most probably a great deal of variety among them not just one stereotypical model.

On a side note it seems those rectangular shields go way back further into history and are especially tied to the Balkans. See for example Brezinski's Osprey title on winged hussars , he mentions that Turks refereed to them as "Rumelian" (i.e. Roman or Byzantine) , whereas Italians called them Albanian or Bosnian etc. , one way or the other they point out to the Balkan peninsula. One could make a speculation that it was the late Balkan/Byzantine experimentation with the heater/kite variety that gave rise to this somewhat weird type of shield ( contrary to most European fashions in which shields became smaller as well as discarded in favour of more and more plate).

See for example this Macedonian fresco painting of saint George dated to 1316-18, the sweeping upward curve is clearly visible


source: http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/George.html

Of importance is also the 14th century Bulgarian Manasses Chronicle in which there are several instanced where an early form wing-shield can be seen http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?titl...+Chronicle (look for the upward curve)

Regards
View user's profile Send private message ICQ Number
János Sibinger




Location: Hungary/France
Joined: 31 May 2009

Posts: 50

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
The shield posted by János Sibinger is a different style of wingshield, this one looks like it was designed for infantry, the straps are mounted in a different manner and the "tip" of the "wing" is much lower. The shield is also smaller than the previous posted versions.


Greetings!
Romolus, good points there, and altough I have never used such shield I still would say that this was a shield for cavalrymen. You might have noticed the little notch on the edge of the shield, near the shorter side. That is somekind of lance rest, at least we could observe such usage of this little notch in the Chronicon pictum (a well decorated Hungarian manuscript written by Márk Káltay. A nice source if you are interest ed in the XIVth century.) Furthermore I haven't seen any shields in the museums of my county, presenting the ottoman period, neither winged, nor rounded ones, only Turkish, yet multiple breastplates, helmets and alike is being presented, in good condition. Yes, this might be becouse of the shields were made of materials wich could easily get rotten and damaged, but I think that if they were common phenomenon on the battlefield we would have somekind of trace at least, but I am yet to meet with it (of course I haven't seen all of the museums and I haven't been into the warehouses. Yet... Wink
I'm sorry, I was a bit off topic, but this just came trough my mind.
Best wishes,
John
View user's profile Send private message
Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 13 Jun, 2010 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
You might have noticed the little notch on the edge of the shield, near the shorter side. That is somekind of lance rest, at least we could observe such usage of this little notch in the Chronicon pictum (a well decorated Hungarian manuscript written by Márk Káltay. A nice source if you are interest ed in the XIVth century.)


Yes, but it could also be a handgonne rest as seen in the following picture from (Codex Manuscript 3062, Austrian National Library, Vienna) - source: http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm
Then the shield would have been an infantry shield Happy ...

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: A fly in my brains         Reply with quote

"I have got a fly in my brains......"

This Bulgarian expression usually is used to describe somekind of a weird idea, which occures suddenly, and in the begining is quickly discounted as poor one.
But it evolves and grows in time and occures again, and again, and again ...... till the moment when one decides to use it.

In my case "the fly" is this open-work and engraved decoration of this 16. C Ottoman armour



from "Askeri Muze" (Military Museum) in Istanbul, Turkey

Some more closer pictures here (sorry for the blicks):
http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/askeri-myuze...5.16331595
http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/askeri-myuze...5.16331596
http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/askeri-myuze...5.16331600
http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/askeri-myuze...5.16331601

If Someone is interested in, the whole my album from this museum is here:
http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/askeri-myuze...iya.451965

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun, 2010 12:56 pm    Post subject: A fly in my brains - Continues         Reply with quote

So, I started to work on the decorations. First are the cuisses.

The pattern:



and the work till now - the lower one is just drawn, while the upper one is almost completely cut-through


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Felix R.




PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ehm, well, those will turn out beautiful, carry on. And please increase you pace
View user's profile Send private message
Hisham Gaballa




PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice. I like it. Happy

Will it not significantly increase the weight of the armour Though?
View user's profile Send private message
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, I don't think so.

I use 0.5 mm brass and my intention is to decorate only the knee-cops, the breast-plate and the contours of the arm-guards and greaves. This would be (I hope) no more than one kilogram, distributed almost evenly on the entire body.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nate C.




Location: Palo Alto, CA
Joined: 13 Jun 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun, 2010 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Boris,

Nice work so far. These armors have always intrigued me. I look forward to seeing your finished kit!

BTW, the "powered guillotine" you mentioned is called a "Plate Shear" in English. Fun little machines. Wish I had one Happy.

Schoenes Wochenende,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
View user's profile Send private message
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 31 Jul, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject: The Cuirass         Reply with quote

I lost myself somewhere.............

So, here they are some pictures from the recent work

The rows of the skirt just prior to the assembly (which has already begun)



A closer view to the straps & buckles in the middle of the previous picture, which I use for this project



A closer view to the rows (you can see the strap w/ buckle, already riveted to the middle row)



And detailed view to a section of the skirt (in this case - from the lower row)


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tibor Szebenyi




Location: Hungary
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 45

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 5:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:

If Someone is interested in, the whole my album from this museum is here:


Great album, thank You!
However, they mix arm and leg defences. There are written "Arm guard" everywhere, but I see greaves. They put a pair of greaves even on the arms of that armoured janissary, but it's clearly seen, that they are too long for a forearm. And would make the wrist unmoveable. Funny... Eek!

Thoose greaves are quite similar to basubands, but a museum should know them.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, indeed.

Unfortunately, mixing Ottoman arm defence w/ leg defence is quite often repeated mistake not only in Turkish, but in European museums also.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional



Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 11 Aug, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The skirt was finished several days ago and this



is the final result.

Here are some closer views to the left



and to the right



ends of the skirt with leather straps and buckles well visible.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > Yushman Project
Page 3 of 26 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 24, 25, 26  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum