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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wow, this project turns out to be really impressive.
do you have professional experience in working metal ?

and, what i`m interested, what kind of metal ribbon is this, you used for the plates, and how did you cut them ?
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Boris Bedrosov
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Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jun, 2010 4:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, Gottfried!
I don't have professional experience in metal working. I have always enjoyed working metal, also I have been working metal as part of my "arms-and-armour" hobby since 2006, so this is my experience in metal.

The metal strips, or as you call them - metal ribbons, are cut from sheet metal. As you see, their wight depends only on the number of the holes for the rings. So, during the planning and pattern-making process, I calculated their wight and cut them with powered guillotine - metal-cutting machine, which shares the same idea as the French executionary device - falling heavy metal blade (sorry, but I don't know the English name of this machine). The powered guillotine can be adjusted to cut strips with different wights
So, all I have to do after cutting the straps is to transfer my patterns on them, to drill holes and to cut the individual plates with my angle-grinder.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Last edited by Boris Bedrosov on Sat 05 Jun, 2010 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jun, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ah, ok.

do you have to grind the edges of the blades to get them smooth ? cause i could think, they could be quite sharp after cutting and leading to cuts in your fingers...
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jun, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, of course I grind the edges of the plates smooth. I call this process finishing.
"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jun, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And something still hot Laughing Out Loud from today - half-a-row from the skirt


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Felix R.




PostPosted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This will end up in an awesome piece of armour.
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:
This will end up in an awesome piece of armour.


Yeah, I hope so! Big Grin

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: The Shield         Reply with quote

As I am working parallel on the different elements of the set, from time to time there will be a kind of a jump through my current work.

So, today I started with the cuisses and the shield. Although I have a round Ottoman shield (known as kalkan), for this project I decided to make a trapezoid one, known throughout the Empire as a delii (or deliya) and often seen on contemporary sources:



Actually, this type of shield was well-spread not only in the Ottoman Empire, but also throughout the Balkans and in the Central Europe (as you can see on the picture - both the Muslim and the Christian warriors in the middle wear such shield).
After cutting three sheets of 4 mm plywood with a jig-saw



I dumped them for about two - two-and-a-half hours in hot water and glued them together, using my shield-press


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury


Last edited by Boris Bedrosov on Mon 07 Jun, 2010 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
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PostPosted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What kind of glue did you used? You will cover the shield with thick cloth glued on it after the first gluing and curving phase?
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sun 06 Jun, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Usually, I use standart wood Polyvinyl acetate glue.
And the shield will be covered with glued cloth after it is dryed.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject: The Cuisses         Reply with quote

Although I like my current cuisses very much





I figured out that it would take approximately the same time to re-work them with riveted mail, comparing with making new ones.
So, after a little hesitation, I decided to make a brand new pair, with more rows of smaller plates, a construction usually seen on the authentic examples.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: The Cuisses - Continue         Reply with quote

Again, everything begins with pattern-making process



This time my work was easier, because I used the old patterns as guidelines.
I started my work on the cuisses with the knee-cops. At first, of course, they were cut and finished:



And this is what they looked like after dishing and planishing:


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
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Luke Zechman




Location: Lock Haven Pennsylvania
Joined: 18 Jan 2009

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris,
I have been following this thread every time it bumps, and have been meaning to tell you that this stuff looks superb. I am very limited in my knowledge of this type of armor, and enjoy seeing this set being built. Great job! I can't wait to see the finished kit!

Luke
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Hisham Gaballa




PostPosted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice work Boris, I'm really impressed by the work you have done so far. Keep it up!

By the way I've found a photo of an Ottoman trapezoidal shield, I'm afraid I can't remember which museum it's in, or where I got the photo from:
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Romulus Stoica




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@ Hisham Gaballa

I believe that that shield is hungarian or austrian (is painted in red and white, colors of both Hungary or Austria) and I also believe that it is in an austrian museum, posibly Graz armory. This type of shield was extensively used by light cavalry in Balkan countries, Wallachia, Transylvania, Hungary, Austria and Poland too.
Here's another one from the Metropolitan museum in New York.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ield_1.jpg

@ Boris

Awesome work!
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Tue 08 Jun, 2010 11:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luke Zechman wrote:
Boris,
I have been following this thread every time it bumps, and have been meaning to tell you that this stuff looks superb. I am very limited in my knowledge of this type of armor, and enjoy seeing this set being built. Great job! I can't wait to see the finished kit!

Luke
Well said, and I agree very interesting work and I also look forward to seeing it finished. Big Grin Cool
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hisham Gaballa




PostPosted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
@ Hisham Gaballa

I believe that that shield is hungarian or austrian (is painted in red and white, colors of both Hungary or Austria) and I also believe that it is in an austrian museum, posibly Graz armory. This type of shield was extensively used by light cavalry in Balkan countries, Wallachia, Transylvania, Hungary, Austria and Poland too.
Here's another one from the Metropolitan museum in New York.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ield_1.jpg

@ Boris

Awesome work!


Hi, thanks for the correction. Happy

I found where I got the picture from and you are indeed right. The picture came from what I believe is a German exhibition catalogue entitled "Schatze aus 1001 Nacht, Faszination Morgenland", the shield itself is in the Kunsthistoriches Museum in Vienna. Unfortunately I don't know German so I will just copy out what the caption said, although I think I know what it means:

"Flügeltartsche
Mitte 16. Jahrhundert, Osteuropäisch
Holz, Leder
Höhe 126 cm".

I guess that means "shield, mid 16th century, Eastern Europe, wood and leather, height 126 cm".

Once again I stand corrected. Happy

Most of the other pictures in the catalogue are of Ottoman weapons and armour, and that is why I made the mistake of assuming the shield was Ottoman as well.
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Romulus Stoica




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jun, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi, thanks for the correction. Happy


Happy It was not a correction, only a sort of completion ...
Here, in Eastern Europe, the weapons and armor were masively influenced by otoman design starting with XV century. In fact the turks were also influenced by european weapons and armor and especially Balkan Countries, Wallachia, Transylvania and Hungary were places where the warrior's arsenal was a mixture of eastern and western pieces ... This was discussed in this thread I also check constantly : http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...=hungarian

"Flügeltartsche" can be freely translated as "wingshield" , Flügel = wing, tartsche = shield.
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Hisham Gaballa




PostPosted: Thu 10 Jun, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
Quote:
Hi, thanks for the correction. Happy
..."Flügeltartsche" can be freely translated as "wingshield" , Flügel = wing, tartsche = shield.


Thanks for the link and the clarification. I guessed that tartsche was somehow related to the English word "target", which was sometimes also used for round shields (particularly those used by Scots Highlanders) but I had no idea what flugel meant. I'm guessing its called a wingshield either because of its shape or because these shields often have wings depicted on them.

I came across this picture of a 16th century hussar outfit from the Vienna Kunsthistoriches museum and I noticed that one of the shields in the background has a wing on it:


I have another question though, were these shields only used by cavalrymen, or did infantry use them too? I ask because Boris is trying to reconstruct an Ottoman heavy infantryman.
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Jun, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa wrote:

......................................
I have another question though, were these shields only used by cavalrymen, or did infantry use them too? I ask because Boris is trying to reconstruct an Ottoman heavy infantryman.


Good question, Hisham!

All period sources I have seen, show delii used only by cavalrymen, but never by infantrymen. They also show that the cavalrymen often used the round kalkan, which is typical for infantry.
But .... there is always BUT. In this case the "BUT"s are two:
1. The period lack of standardization by means we understand it today. And I think it is possible delii was used by infantrymen from time to time, in the same manner as the cavalry used kalkan.
2. Although I have seen a lot of pеriod depictions, I have not seen all of them. It is possible to exist an unknown for me depiction, showing an Ottoman infantryman with delii.

So, I chose this kind of shield for my reconstruction firstly because it offers me better protection during the battle re-constructions (especially in the melee) in which I participate, secondly - because of previously mentioned reasons, and at last (this, of course, is not a serious reason Big Grin ) - because I wanted to make something new, something I have never made before.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
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