Bronze Age Swords -- myArmoury.com

Stephan Johansson · Posted: Sun 14 Aug, 2011 11:36 am Post subject:

Thank you very much!
Yes you are right about I was asking for.
Very good sword picture that gives me something to pattern.

Is the "rivet" at the top of the pommel the wooden peg protruding?

Today it seems so obvious to use the tang for pommel attachment.
Interesting to see how the sword slowly developed and became more and more refined, and at the same time got a "simpler" and more logic design.

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Sun 14 Aug, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject:

Stephan Johansson · Posted: Mon 15 Aug, 2011 12:57 pm Post subject:

Thank you very much for your answers!

I have now decided to order a Limehouse sword from Neil.
Hope this turnes out well.

Jeroen Zuiderwijk · Industry Professional

Stephan Johansson · Posted: Thu 18 Aug, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject:

Very nice swords thank you!

Do anyone know of a good book about classification and development of bronze age swords?
Something like Records of medieval swords but for bronze age swords.
I haven't found anything when searching.

Stephan Johansson · Posted: Fri 19 Aug, 2011 11:06 am Post subject:

I am trying to get a hold of the classification of bronze swords.

When looking at Neil's swords, would it be correct to say that the following
swords are variations of Naue II type:
Wilberton
Urnfield
Carp's tongue
Ewart Park
Limehouse
Witham

..or am I missing something..

Matthew Amt · Posted: Fri 19 Aug, 2011 12:47 pm Post subject:

Hmm, not really. Naue II is generally held to be a bit distinct from other local styles. And most of those British ones are a bit more leaf-shaped, in any case. Sure, there isn't necessarily much *functional* difference, but typologies are based more on looks. Ewart Park and Wilburton are "types", Urnfield is more of an era.

Probably what you want are a couple volumes in the Praehistorische Bronzefunde (PBF) series, available here:

http://www.antikmakler.de/catalog/index.php

These are the ultimate highly technical sources, full of line drawings (and some photos), dry scholarly writing, etc. There are other books that might have a little drawing to summarize some types, but you'd have to dig around a little.

Remember that typologies exist mainly in the minds of their modern creators, using criteria that may never have occurred to the ancients. They can also be used to draw some very peculiar conclusions. I remember seeing a chart of the "evolution" of the British typologies, which presented each type as succeeding the next, chronologically. It also showed how each type developed itself, so for instance the Wilburton started with no tang projection for the pommel, then had a small one, then a larger one. Then the Wilburton was supposedly supplanted by the Ewart Park (not sure I have the actual types in order, here!), which supposedly WENT THROUGH THE EXACT SAME EVOLUTION! In other words, someone seemed to think that a new sword type each devolved to having no pommel projection, then grew that part in the same way as the previous Type. Obviously this is utter bunk--those types were clearly contemporaneous, maybe regional variations or just different ways of doing outlines and blade ridges. But it's a good warning on letting typologies run away with your imagination!

Matthew

Dan Howard · Posted: Fri 19 Aug, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject:

Agreed with Matt. Typologies don't do anything useful apart from give us a short-hand way of describing the appearance of a particular item.

Stephan Johansson · Posted: Sat 20 Aug, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject:

Here is a swedish single edge bronze sword, looking a bit different.
When I first looked at the picture I did not realize that it was a sword...
http://www.historiska.se/ImageVault/Images/id...ndler.aspx

Harry Marinakis · Posted: Sat 23 Jan, 2016 12:34 pm Post subject:

I've been looking at the gold-gilded rivets on Bronze-Age sword hilts. They certainly have very large rivet heads that are slightly domed.

So.... I've been thinking about how these actually worked. Think they were two-piece rivets?

Harry Marinakis · Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2016 2:35 am Post subject:

You can cast one of the large domed rivet heads, but how did they get the other side?

Do you think they left a long exposed shank and peened it down to another large done head? Because you know as well as I do, trying to peen a rivet with a long, soft shank just bends the shank.

Or were these rivets cast in two pieces, each with a large domed head?

Matt Corbin · Posted: Mon 25 Jan, 2016 11:29 pm Post subject:

I'd kind of always ASSumed that they were just hammered through and then peened on both sides. Your post made me dig through my saved photos of Mycenaean swords. I don't have any that rotate to show all sides, but these are as close as I could find. Hopefully they're a little helpful. Have you tried posting this question over on the bronze age forum? There are some experts there who could probably give you a definitive answer.

Harry Marinakis · Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 1:42 am Post subject:

Thanks for the suggestion, Matt. I always assumed they were peened, too, but as I am getting down to actually doing it I realized peening probably ain't gonna work.

David Lewis Smith · Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 7:36 am Post subject:

Great photos on a great thread..

I have two I am working on, they are lovely blades.

Paul, I would love to see your collection, please post photos. I am also curious how you display yours if at all.

I second that Neil is a great guy. I have only communicated with him a few times but I like him, and he is ever the gentleman.

Harry Marinakis · Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 8:33 pm Post subject:

Here's my new baby from Neil, a type Ci rapier (unfinished blade)

Gregory J. Liebau · Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 9:44 pm Post subject:

Very nice, Harry. I regret having sold Neil's first completed Ci rapier blade, which he made several years ago. It broke in two pieces after being removed from the mould but was brazed back together and looked pretty good. I think Matthew Amt might have it now... Be sure to post updates as you work on the hilt and whatnot. Cheers!

-Gregory

Matt Corbin · Posted: Wed 27 Jan, 2016 2:07 pm Post subject:

Congrats Harry. I saw Neil put that picture up on his Facebook page and i was instantly jealous. Please give us updated pictures when she's done.

Harry Marinakis · Posted: Wed 27 Jan, 2016 6:41 pm Post subject:

If I can figure out the rivet thing....

I bought some nice Turkish walnut for the handle and pommel. Couldn't find any mammoth ivory knife scales that were large enough, so I'm gonna stick with wood this time. I might try a marble pommel, though....

EDIT: I have an answer. The large domed rivets are actually washers, and the rivet was peened over the washer. Duh!

J. Nicolaysen · Posted: Fri 29 Jan, 2016 6:04 am Post subject:

Beautiful sword Harry! Great type. I am excited to see how you hilt it.

Matt Corbin · Posted: Fri 29 Jan, 2016 12:55 pm Post subject:

Of course...washers. Sometimes it's the simplest explanations that escape us.

Edit: The picture seems to have disappeared, but that was some fine looking turkish olivewood Harry. If you don't mind me asking, what was your source?