myArmoury.com - The chronology of mail?

Posts: 805 Location: new orleans

Sun 27 Dec, 2009 9:54 pm

19c Japanese butted chainmail

Something a lot of people do not realize was that in the 1800s when Europe and other parts of the world were in the process of eliminating the use of chainmail and armor in general, the Japanese (which still maintained a feudal society) were producing more full chainmail for combat than ever, I have access to a large collection of late Edo period chainmail and armor clothes and you can easily tell the fancy types of chainmail that was worn as a show of status from the everyday chainmail protection worn by soldiers, security forces and police. Here is a picture of a full chainmail outfit with all parts being certified by one of the leading figures of Japanese armor as being from the late Edo period, which would have it being make in the early to mid 1800s( when the samurai's lost power, the feudal age ended and the modern era started), this set is typical of the chainmail being used at the times, it is made completely of butted chainmail except for the shin guards which have some small iron splints attached and the gloves which have some hexagon plates of iron or shell sewn inside the upper part.

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Timo Nieminen

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Posts: 1,504 Location: Brisbane, Australia

Sun 27 Dec, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: 19c Japanese butted chainmail

Eric S wrote:

Something a lot of people do not realize was that in the 1800s when Europe and other parts of the world were in the process of eliminating the use of chainmail and armor in general, the Japanese (which still maintained a feudal society) were producing more full chainmail for combat than ever,

Producing more full chainmail than ever, at least. Why do you say it was for combat? What do you mean by "combat"?

Who was making it, and who was using it?

Some later mail was intended as real working armour, but as lightweight anti-assassination armour, rather than for the battlefield. Some was mainly for display, i.e., parade armour. This last category isn't necessarily just the fancy pieces, since it wouldn't always be appropriate to dress the low-ranking retainers in fancy gear. Just look at some of the low quality non-combat Edo polearms. Even a lot of the fancy pieces, some very well-made, are part of the general devolution of weapons and armour in post-warfare Japan.

Earlier Japanese mail for the battlefield wasn't riveted, so it would be surprising to see Edo-period riveted mail. Battlefield mail was usually multi-turn rings (i.e., key-ring like), and hardened. How hard are the rings in the mail that you show? Hard rings would be good against edged weapons, potentially catastrophic against firearms. Could be good police armour.

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Eric S

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Posts: 805 Location: new orleans

Tue 29 Dec, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: 19c Japanese butted chainmail

Timo Nieminen wrote:

Eric S wrote:

Something a lot of people do not realize was that in the 1800s when Europe and other parts of the world were in the process of eliminating the use of chainmail and armor in general, the Japanese (which still maintained a feudal society) were producing more full chainmail for combat than ever,

Producing more full chainmail than ever, at least. Why do you say it was for combat? What do you mean by "combat"?

Who was making it, and who was using it?

Some later mail was intended as real working armour, but as lightweight anti-assassination armour, rather than for the battlefield. Some was mainly for display, i.e., parade armour. This last category isn't necessarily just the fancy pieces, since it wouldn't always be appropriate to dress the low-ranking retainers in fancy gear. Just look at some of the low quality non-combat Edo polearms. Even a lot of the fancy pieces, some very well-made, are part of the general devolution of weapons and armour in post-warfare Japan.

Earlier Japanese mail for the battlefield wasn't riveted, so it would be surprising to see Edo-period riveted mail. Battlefield mail was usually multi-turn rings (i.e., key-ring like), and hardened. How hard are the rings in the mail that you show? Hard rings would be good against edged weapons, potentially catastrophic against firearms. Could be good police armour.

As far as the strength and type of metal used in Edo period chainmail and armor, I have never seen any research on this subject, not on the strenght of the mail or if it was made from domestic or imported metal, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has information on this subject and would consider contributing a sample for qualified research.. As far as who made this kind of armor, I would imagine it was made by the same people who made traditional armor as the basic components are the same, from what I have read and seen, chainmail and armor clothes were used by wealthy samurai and merchants, soldiers, security forces and police, Edo period japan despite being...post warfare.......was by the 1800s at least, a very turbulent country with civil unrest and different factions fighting for power, and all defence and security was controlled by the ruling samurai class..including the police.....in fact Edo period japan was a complete police state with the average citizen having almost no rights, travel was restricted, heavy weapons were banned, spys were every were. From what I have read, Japan may have been one of the last places in the world were traditional armor, chainmail and weapons were actually used in combat. I take my meaning of combat from the dictionary and this meaning applies to the type of fighting going on in Japan in the 1800s....here are a few links which explain the conflicts of the time..........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boshin_War................http://japanesehistory.info/edo.htm...................and this interesting link on chainmail used during battle...............http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=crmas&p=Sasaki+Tadasaburo's+Chain+mail+found+in+Kyoto. I just say a chainmail jacket and armored helmet for sale in Japan recently, the seller stated that it was owned by a relative who used it during the Boshin war. Unfortunately there has not been a lot of research on this time period as far as this subject is concerned considering that it was a relatively short time ago.

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