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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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 Posted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | Show me a Duplieren in Fiore. |
Well, OK: first play of the second master of zogho largo - from the true edge to true edge bind you cut with a riverso - striking behind the opponent's sword. Fiore cuts down to the arm, Vadi the head, making the latter's version more identical to the Liechtenauer text. But both have the same idea - from the basic bind, you cut behind his sword with the true edge.
Cheers!
Greg
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | You're right. As usual, when I start getting too casual in my writing I get jumped on: I should know by now I have to say the same thing with all the qualifications every single time. Sorry, Christian, these cuts are, as I should have said every single time, not just most of the time, "wide and long" as Döbringer called them. The cuts all the way to the ground should more properly be classed with the long half of that expression. If you are cutting to the ground you are cutting *long*. |
Ok, last call here...that's not what *long* means in this context - it's not the length of the arc of the sword, it's the extension of the blow; ie., how far out the weapon is 'slung'.
Cheers,
CHT
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | even the root concepts are different, with Fiore being much more focused on wrestling at the sword than the German school, for example. |
Except he really isn't. The entire crossing in wide play, with the right let refused, is meant to maintain distance and prevent the opponent from grappling you. Fiore simply organizes his exemplar material differently - for example he never shows the off-side mirror to his plays - he simply tells you that they can be done at the end of the section. As for wrestling at the sword, sou close to grips because you must, and by and large, most the 15 techniques that Fiore shows can all be found in 15th c German sources.
Just keeping it accurate on the Italian side of things!
But Hugh - if full cuts aren't used in the German school, why does Zornhut, Wechsel and Nebenhut appear in things like the c.1400 portion of Codex Wallerstein? Why are they so common in non-technical artwork, as well? Why does Ringeck have an entire section on slashings from the Nebenhut?
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 28 Nov, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: |
Medieval Europeans and Japanese didn't need to do test cutting. They cut people. They all knew how a sword worked. The Japaense started doing it when the martial arts of the sword separated from the reality of combat, and they did it for the same reasons we should--to keep it real.
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Just to add to this point with another image/comparison: A logger ( traditional using an axe not a chain saw ) cuts down trees every day and learned to cut down trees by cutting down trees. I don't think a logger would do test cutting but an amateur training for logging competitions might practice what would amount to test cutting.
If one has acquired a great deal of swordsmanship skill but never cut anything one might be unpleasantly surprised to find that one's cutting might not be very effective due to bad edge alignment, practice or lack of follow through I think.
In period as Michael wrote the knowledge about how to cut would have been part of the art and although a novice might be using a pell in training he would have instructors with real experience to correct any errors they might notice: Errors we might not spot or know about but some test cutting is useful in the same way that bouting is useful but we are always dealing with approximations of reality since we can't actually " DO " it for real.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick De Block
Location: Belgium Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sun 29 Nov, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: |
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To prompt an answer to Vincent le Chevalier's question about the coördination between the foot and the cut, I'll write down the three I know.
In Kendo you lift you foot about a foot and while putting it down you cut, both connect at the same instant. A bit like Maniwa Nen Ryu except that the stance of Maniwa Nen Ryu is wider and most of their weight is on their backfoot.
In Muso Shinden Ryu you rather 'glide' and your foot arrives just before the cut, your cut drops down just after you've put your foot down or dropping down your weight is transfered through your body to the cut.
In Shinto Muso Ryu (a stick art) you throw the point first and you step without shortening your step.
Would someone, please, comment on how and why it is done in Longsword. Thank you.
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Max W.
Location: South Germany Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun 29 Nov, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Alright, since the definition of "long and wide strikes" in the Hs. 3227a play such a major role in this controversy, let's have a look how those "long" strikes are described within a very insightful context:
Cod. Hs. 3227a, formerly attributed to the Pfaffe Hanko Döbringer, page 40r
| Quote: | | [...]vnd is mag mülich eyn guter fechter /syn / ane dy winden / Wy wol etzliche leychmeistere • dy vornichte~ / vnd spreche~ is sy gar swach was aus den winden ku~pt / vnd neñen is / aus dem korcze~ sw°te / dorvm~e das sy slecht vnd ey~veldik dar gen / vnd meyne~ das sy / aus dem lange~ sw°te gefochte~ / was dar get / mt gestracke~ arme~ / vnd mt gestrakte~ swerte / vnd was gar veyntlich vnd stark von alle~ krefte~ des leybes dar get / nur durch wol stehens wille / vnd das is grawsam an czu sehñ ist / we~ sich eyn° alzo strekt / recht zam her eyne~ hazen wolle irlawfen / vnd daz ist alles nicht / weder dy winden vnd weder lichtnaw°s kunst / wen do ist keyne sterke weder / deñe worvm~e wer anders ku~st / solde allemal dy sterke vörczihen / |
| Quote: | | [...]and there can be hardly a good fencer without the Winden / although some corpsemasters condemn them and speak that it would be quite weak what proceeds out of the Winden and call it from the short sword / because they act badly and simpleminded and tell that they fence from the long sword / which is performed with stretched arms and with stretched sword / and this goes menacing with force and all the strenght of the body / just for looking good / and it is horrible to watch how one stretches himself like that as if he wants to chase after a rabbit / and that is all neither the Winden nor Liechtenauers art / since there [in Liechtenauers art] is no strenght against [weakness against strenght and the other way round] / because wherefore would be the art / should the strenght always be superior |
In this context you can very clearly see the "big picture" of the Liechtenauer tradition, it's all about well dosed actions -> Moße
And -all the other quotes- of the Hs. 3227a which refer to wide and bad strikes should logically be interpreted according to this very detailed description of "what is bad" in the very same manuscript. Dogmatism is the greatest possible hindrance in succesfully reconstructing this art, always look at the big picture when interpretating single sentences. Especially if you are working with translations of transcriptions. The transcriber/ translator point of view can and most probably will be influencing the outcome. Since the original manuscripts are sometimes so crudely phrased that every proper sentence built out of them is just one valid interpretation of many.
The question if -exclusively- "full cuts" or "half cuts" were used should have never been arised. Both are part of the art, there are plenty enough sources mentioned in this thread. The basic problem resulting to this controversy is that we all are thinking too much within the frames of the art. The issue in the manuscript is not to condemn one of those both controlled and well dosed strikes with angled arms as we all do them (which are even derivates of each other) but the exaggerated and rowdyish overstretched strike of the buffalo that is so far out of the art and our minds to even consider being mentioned.
What is condemned here and within -the whole manuscript- are overpowered racked arms strikes that might impress the baker's daughter on the sidelines but are as we all know just an invitation for Nachreisen...hindering yourself to to the Nachschlag since you're struggeling with balance, making you loose your breath and waste your energy and so on...
You might think, man that's common sense! Yea WE already know this since we're studying this very same art. But at times where education and informations were scarce there might have been the fencers using the sword as a sharp steel club performing useless parries and overpowered strikes like they did as children with their wooden ones. And on the opposite the fencer who knew that sometimes less is more, that well dosed precise actions can make the weak man withstand the strong one. And that's what makes it an art after all and that is what the manuscript is trying to teach you.
In my opinion the most simple interpretation should receive the most attention, and furthermore i think of the whole "german swordmanship" as a very reduced, simple and straightforward system without room for mysticism. For me, Liechtenauer signifies a handful of reliable working moves and a proper mindset, that's all you need in a fight. He's keeping it simple on purpose (very modern design idea... and combined with his intense research and overall concept... *whistle*)
Sure, we all do things a little bit different, but all within the limits of the art. And i highly doubt it was different back then. Another school, another interpretation. You can actually even see that in some different Glosa to the very same Liechtenauer Zettel.
| Michael Edelson wrote: | | I can picture Talhoffer shaking his head and saying, "Dude, just cut." |
I'd switch the "cut" with a "hew" otherwise i'm totally with that.
Sometimes things are less complicated than we assume. There probably just isn't more about them. Even if our minds urge for romantic secrets painted with medieval colours on worthy pergament...by the way, has anyone else already found out Talhoffers secret writing method?
Talhoffer (Thott) 1459 page 11r "der schribt us dem mund und wirt schwartz" - "He writes out of the mouth and becomes black"
Hint: Pay close attention to the scroll and those two different (and somewhat unique) stains, i wonder if we could extract some Talhoffer DNA 
edit... english you know...
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Michael Edelson
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Andrew Maxwell
Location: New Zealand Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Sun 29 Nov, 2009 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Max W. wrote: | In my opinion the most simple interpretation should receive the most attention, and furthermore i think of the whole "german swordmanship" as a very reduced, simple and straightforward system without room for mysticism. For me, Liechtenauer signifies a handful of reliable working moves and a proper mindset, that's all you need in a fight. He's keeping it simple on purpose (very modern design idea... and combined with his intense research and overall concept... *whistle*)
Sure, we all do things a little bit different, but all within the limits of the art. And i highly doubt it was different back then. Another school, another interpretation. You can actually even see that in some different Glosa to the very same Liechtenauer Zettel. |
Great post, especially this.
Perhaps the martial art that needs more attention is Occam's razor
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 30 Nov, 2009 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | Hi Max,
I enjoyed your post very much, and I think you're spot on. |
I second Michael's comment here.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Mon 30 Nov, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | Hi Max,
I enjoyed your post very much, and I think you're spot on. |
I second the motion. We have a winner!
J.
Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Mon 30 Nov, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick De Block wrote: | | To prompt an answer to Vincent le Chevalier's question about the coördination between the foot and the cut, I'll write down the three I know. |
Thanks Patrick!
I have also observed predominantly foot first, then sword, or simultaneous, in the Japanese arts. Shinto muso ryu is interesting, I think an example of what you describe can be seen in this video with the first and last strike. I'm not sure (just looking at videos, which can be misleading) that it's the only or even predominant mechanic though, it seems a few strikes are made to be in sync foot-weapon. It seems to be used in a very specific situation, to beat the opponent's weapon (or wrists, I guess) and enter with an instant thrust. And of course the sword guy does not seem to use it at all... Nonetheless it's the closest I've seen to the famous tip-first cut in a living art (but even then the CoG has an arcing trajectory).
I'll detail what I know in Western arts:
In Thibault, the two-handed sword strikes are pretty well documented (a fact I had missed for a while) and the strike happens in a longpoint position not just of the sword but of the whole body, with the feet set in place. During the recovery the sword moves but not the feet. This is the case whether striking from zornhut (or a position closely related) over a full big step of from vom tag held at head level (not the lower vom tag variant with hands at chest level) moving only the front foot a bit. I suppose the motion of the arms and sword was adapted to finish in sync with the cuts...
And then there is this bit in the recently published translation of Figueyredo:
| Quote: | And to better achieve this perfection in practice, it is necessary that the swordsman knows (as a universal
rule) that all the blows of the montante have to be given such that the body is steady at the end of the natural
movement, which is the one used for offense, and the means of execution, because if the body is moved (since
this weapon is used with two hands, and thus requires you to apply a certain force because of its weight) you
could dangerously fall, either for not being well and firmly planted, or by missing, due to a deflection, the object
to which you directed the effect. |
which I interpret as stating that the last thing that keeps moving during a cut is the sword, and thus that the feet should have reached their position by the time the cut lands.
Both of these may apply to German longsword, but then they may not. The two-handed sword work in Thibault looks suspiciously germanic at times but there is too little to be sure. The montante is a bit longer and heavier than the typical medieval longsword so it may entice different mechanics. Anyway, this is a problem worth considering in my opinion.
Oh, and I also agree wholeheartedly with Max's post 
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon 30 Nov, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Max W. wrote: | | Sometimes things are less complicated than we assume. |
We sometimes get so wrapped up in the discussion we forget the real point of the play is to "Just hit the other guy" ( without being struck in return).
I third (or is that fourth) the motion on Max's post.
Bravo!
DT
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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