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Julien M




Location: Austin TX
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 3:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi mate,

This was a purely subjective comment on the aesthetic choices you made, not an observation on the historical accuracy of your approach.

The finish of the different components varies quiet a bit (factory looking blade (typical of HT), somehow antique looking hilt and scabbard fittings, brand new dyed leather for the scabbard). Just thought that such an approach might just merge them together a bit more (and hand dyed leather doesn't have to be necessarily less pretty, but let's just say it's a matter of personal taste) That said, I think you did great with the assembly and I like the result such as it is...and you are evidently proud of the result so that's all that matters here...

J
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 5:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Hi mate,

This was a purely subjective comment on the aesthetic choices you made, not an observation on the historical accuracy of your approach.

Thanks for the clarification and thanks for the pointers.
I see what you mean. I did darken the leather since the pictures were taken, perhaps you'll find this result better.


Also note that digital photos don't depict perfectly how it looks IRL, especially colors and it also gives a smoother look to it than it really has. The scabbard looks dark brown to the eye now, but when I photograph it a tone of almost purple comes out. The best result I get with my camera is with bright natural sunlight, since I don't have a photo studio. But today it's very cloudy so this is the best I can do right now.

Julien M wrote:

The finish of the different components varies quiet a bit (factory looking blade (typical of HT), somehow antique looking hilt and scabbard fittings, brand new dyed leather for the scabbard).


Most historical blades weren't the "Stainless look" mirror finish we see so much of in blades today and that appeals to most modern people's sense of aesthetics, but more of a satin finish. Like say the typical Albion swords. That's why I kept the Tinker/Hanwei satin finish. Personally if it was aesthetics alone I was going for I'd have polished the blade a lot more and I had to hold myself back from doing it at the time.
What makes the hilt pieces seem antique is the niello I added to them. This is a technique used on the original Dybeck sword as reported in the archeological report, but was lost in the conservation process.
Niello is contrast coloring of the recesses in a relief piece, mainly by some form or other of enamel, and was widely used throughout history but mainly sees modern day use in certain types of Asian jewelry.

Julien M wrote:

Just thought that such an approach might just merge them together a bit more (and hand dyed leather doesn't have to be necessarily less pretty, but let's just say it's a matter of personal taste) That said, I think you did great with the assembly and I like the result such as it is...and you are evidently proud of the result so that's all that matters here...
J


Thanks! I'll get some more recent pictures up. I just realised when I took these it wasn't finished and some of the things you talk about I'd already changed, so I was looking at the sword at home going, what's he talking about, I already did that?. Wink

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge


Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Thu 08 Apr, 2010 8:58 am; edited 3 times in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
ost historical blades weren't the "Stainless look" mirror finish we so much of in blades today, that's why I kept the Tinker/Hanwei satin finish.


Do you have a source that indicates the properties of historical blade finishes?

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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess Peter Jonsson would be a better person to ask?
I asked Peter the same question at this sword demo he did years ago at Tekniska Museet in Stockholm since all his swords except the Sture were all satin finish and I expected more of a mirror finish from top end swords like these. He said something like they're not that way out of neglect of polish but for authenticity.
I've heard the same from "Tod" at Todsstuff too. Not that there weren't any highly polished ones ever made but just that normally they weren't. It never occurred to me to second guess their research, both have studied the topic of historical blades far more than I.

I've seen plenty of other high quality modern made swords have the same satin finish, if there is evidence of the finish bveing this way it would explain it. I mean, it's not that it's all that hard to polish them more.
My Dads' Swedish cavalry saber has the same satin finish, but it's "modern" from the 1800s and may not have any relevance to earlier times. My antique Russian marine saber from 1850 is mirror polished now, but that was because I polished it. Before that it had a fine milky finish, it got really rusty and I had to choose between letting it rust more or fix it up. Fixing it up may have de-evaluated it some though.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge


Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Thu 08 Apr, 2010 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
I guess Peter Jonsson would be a better person to ask?
I asked Peter the same question at this sword demo he did years ago at Tekniska Museet in Stockholm since all his swords except the Sture were all satin finish and I expected more of a mirror finish from top end swords like these. He said something like they're not that way out of neglect of polish but for authenticity.
I've heard the same from "Tod" at Todsstuff too. Not that there weren't any highly polished ones ever made but just that normally they weren't. It never occurred to me to second guess their research, both have studied the topic of historical blades far more than I.


I'm always curious for sources on this so any insight from others on where their research comes from would be good to know.

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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Apr, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:

I'm always curious for sources on this.


Now so am I. I'll look into it and get back to you.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Julien M




Location: Austin TX
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Apr, 2010 1:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
I see what you mean. I did darken the leather since the pictures were taken, perhaps you'll find this result better.



Indeed I do! It look miles better, well done...A slight cosmetic tweak can hugely affect the overall appearance of a finished project.

I especially like what you did with the hilt/metal parts, the finish is really nice....adding a lot of depth. I had heard of niello, but it seemed hard to prepare the required mix. I have cast Pewter buckles and I was wondering how I could improve the finish too. I was planning on cheating and use a lavis technique (washing the item with dark diluted ink/paint), then clean the raised part of the pattern...just like when I was painting miniatures in the old days Can you tell us more about the technique you used?

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Most historical blades weren't the "Stainless look" mirror finish we see so much of in blades today and that appeals to most modern people's sense of aesthetics, but more of a satin finish.



You're preaching a believer here. All my blades are satin finished, whether or not it's more historical is another issue...I just find it much more appealing to have a sword that does not look like a new stainless steel kitchen knife. But I don't consider the HT to be satin finished...not by a long shot. I own a HT Norman: the fuller is rather high polished while the flats are left very rough...and it seems to be the case for yours too. I will even that on mine, and beside polishing I might use a spray of salt and vinegar to slightly "antique" the blade...it can be left that way or cleaned off with scoth brite, leaving just the grayish satin finish that I'm after. I think that might look great on your blade too.

Cheers,

j
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Apr, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:

Indeed I do! It look miles better, well done...A slight cosmetic tweak can hugely affect the overall appearance of a finished project.

Many thanks!

Julien M wrote:

I especially like what you did with the hilt/metal parts, the finish is really nice....adding a lot of depth. I had heard of niello, but it seemed hard to prepare the required mix. I have cast Pewter buckles and I was wondering how I could improve the finish too. I was planning on cheating and use a lavis technique (washing the item with dark diluted ink/paint), then clean the raised part of the pattern...just like when I was painting miniatures in the old days Can you tell us more about the technique you used?


It's very similar to miniature painting recesses with ink for contrast.
Yes you can use ink, but maybe cover it with laquer to make it water resistant if it's to be worn outside where it might rain. (Laquer comes from the Lac bug and wasn't available in europe until the 18th century though acording to wiki)
Niello is often enamel today because it's durable and takes a shine similar to metal, but it wasn't always enamel in viking times. The Dybeck find report indicates that its' Niello was a dark but not overly strong paint that dissolved easily when conservating the blade and handle. But then perhaps those chemicals melt enamel easily too. I'll have to ask a friend of mine who's Conservator about that actually. But probably it indicates something more in line of cassein based paint (still used today and mass produced even) or a heavy ink.

I was thinking of experimenting with burnt oil technique to get a super lasting Niello, but my brother who's a material engineer says that could ruin the bronze. 300 degrees Celsius to burn oil, I don't know if that really could ruin the metal, maybe he's thinking of heating it to a glow but that's not what I had in mind. I should test it on a less expensive piece.


Julien M wrote:

You're preaching a believer here.

Great minds think alike! And us normal people too sometimes. Wink
Yes I do see your point and I'll have a go at polishing the blade and then wash it with lemon acid. That'll probably give it a smooth satin finish. I'm also curious if any "smoke curls" will appear in the fuller when I apply the acid, it depends on how they made the blade. A friend of mine has a Hanwei Katana that we found out was actually lightly damascened when he did this, so maybe.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Nick Bourne




Location: London, United Kingdom
Joined: 09 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Nov, 2010 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Johann,
I was wondering if you could share some of your techniques for polishing and cleaning up the Mercia Sveiter pieces, I have a some myself but they are unaltered from purchasing and so are very dull with some mould imperfections, How could I go about improving the look?
Thanks in advance,
Nick
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Stephen Wheatley




Location: DORSET ENGLAND
Joined: 15 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Nov, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great job Johan, I love the early pre-viking stuff and you've made a fantastic debut!

I'm making a boar crest helm at the moment from the same period - English leaving Angelholm or Angeln or wherever they found themselves in southern Scandinavia before hitting Britain. The really intereting thing is that most northern weapons at that time could have been Geatish,Swedish,Danish,Norse or indeed English; they're all pretty similar.

Must get across the N Sea soon and check out Nydam and Lejre again, meantime I'd love to see anything else you make.

Steve

Stephen Wheatley
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nick Bourne wrote:
Hi Johann,
I was wondering if you could share some of your techniques for polishing and cleaning up the Mercia Sveiter pieces, I have a some myself but they are unaltered from purchasing and so are very dull with some mould imperfections, How could I go about improving the look?
Thanks in advance,
Nick


Hi Nick.
What I did was use a dremel with a sander cylinder tip to carefully and light handed remove the mould seams, then I used the cardboardlike tips, the ones that are usually white or blue and semi-hard. These work deeper on soft metal like brass than on steel so be careful. These I used extensively to level out uneven patches,and correcting some minor details and brining out some that were less visible. Then I used the felt rondel with polishing wax, and a new felt rondel with a fine polishing compound. And finally a large buffing wheel on a stationary grinder.
Then I added niello in all the recesses using permanent Humbrol model ink and a fine brush and finished with another quick polish with the buffing wheel.
It requires most of all patience and also some skill with a dremel.

Next time I work on one of the brass fittings I'll try to make a video but unlike my youtube video of glue bathing leather lamellar it's a bit more noisy to run the dremel and it could be annoying for the viewer. I'll figure something out.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge


Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Thu 04 Nov, 2010 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Wheatley wrote:
Great job Johan, I love the early pre-viking stuff and you've made a fantastic debut!

I'm making a boar crest helm at the moment from the same period - English leaving Angelholm or Angeln or wherever they found themselves in southern Scandinavia before hitting Britain. The really intereting thing is that most northern weapons at that time could have been Geatish,Swedish,Danish,Norse or indeed English; they're all pretty similar.

Must get across the N Sea soon and check out Nydam and Lejre again, meantime I'd love to see anything else you make.

Steve


Hi Steve, and many thanks.
I absolutely adore all iron age crafts both early and late too and I'm glad you like my debut.
However I hate to correct flattery, but I simply must point out that the Dybeck sword is actually dated to the early part of the late viking age, around 960-980 AD due to it's crossguard and pommel being convex. You see much the same shape in the Normand swords, especially the 100 years or so after Hasings, but with simpler iron or steel gurads and pommels.
Please forgive me, it's in no way meant as being offensive, just informative. Wink

Yes, Scandinavian and Anglo Saxon weapons of this age were interhchangeable and culture was exchanged, not to mention the Rus, and even as far away as Constantinople. Indeed finds all over europe from this age suggest that what we call "viking" swords were used by all in this wider region, heathen and christian alike. They were simply the europeean swords of that age.
As a good example, the swedish Riksantikvarieämbetet (eng. roughly "National institution of Antiquities") have classed the Dybeck sword as probably originating from "English" (probably implying Anglo Saxon) craftsmen and exported to Sweden or possibly gifted between kings as was custom.

Since you asked, here's some other stuff I've made. A Gaddhjalt and two axes.


The Gaddhjalt is a typical Oakshott type X, but more precisely it's a modern detailed copy of a surviving Gaddhaljt, even down to the weight. Well I got it a couple of grams off.
The larger is a war axe I made as a reproduction of a find in Lund from rouhly the same age as the Dybeck sword, the smaller is a craftsmans' axe, generic viking age.
I made the larger axe head, bought and modified the smaller, and bought the blade for the Gaddhjalt and made everything else for it. The crossguard is steel, the pommel is iron, both are blackened with burnt oil. The handle is one piece Beech with silver covered copper wire.

Another photo of the Gaddhjalt. I made this for my brother so we could do cutting training together.


Which brings me to another of my favorite activities.
Cutting is sweet with these swords and quite addictive. I did some light cutting with plastic bottles a few days ago since I'm out of practice to do the usual Tatami Omotes and someone broke the stand last time.

The odd string attached to the Dybeck is paracord, it's a safetyloop so it can't fly away during cutting. Safety first. Always.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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