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Nathan M Wuorio




Location: Maine.
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if it will ever be determined where it came from? If it's a mash up of different parts with no clear country of origin, then 18th century saber is probably what to call it. Nonetheless, it's a very nice sword.
Nathan.
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T J Miller




Location: US INDIANA
Joined: 13 Apr 2009

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks like someone threw the coptic, theban, and enochian along with a pinch of the hebrew alphabets into a blender and came up with a new writing. It kinda looks like sanskrit...but not really. With all the magickal societies floating around in the 1800's it might be something obscure or it might be an asian regional script. Your best bet would be to contact someone like Lon Milo DuQuette to see if he recognizes it.
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Alan H. Weller




Location: Palo Alto, CA
Joined: 31 Oct 2006

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian Hutchison wrote:
Interesting, that script looks like Hindi or maybe Thai.


After showing the photo to a couple of Jordanians and being told it wasn't Arabic, I then showed it to a friend who speaks and reads Thai. He said it was not Thai.

Both Ian Hutchison and the Jordanians suggested it might be Hindi. Has that been checked out?
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen,
"Honestly, I would suggest going back to an earlier suggestion and actually spending a good amount of time in studying what has already been presented."

Very true. I actually have been checking all those things out quite a bit since I purchased it, but I was also throwing about for a quick decisive answer as far as an established language. I was pretty doubtful about it until the Georgian possibility. The esoteric angle is even more dodgey. But its a cooI angle.
I sometimes run many ideas at the same time but with everything getting eliminated I am back to esoterica. Those were some excellent links you gave me as well. I hadnt ever seen those before. Thanks much!

Nathan,
" I wonder if it will ever be determined where it came from? If it's a mash up of different parts with no clear country of origin, then 18th century saber is probably what to call it. Nonetheless, it's a very nice sword.""

Tru dat, Nathan. If its a mash up I think it was done a long time ago. But I dont think it is. I polished up the silver tape around the grip and cleaned up the blade (just a bit.) and it looks awesome! I'm going to enjoy it for quite some time.
Its a type of sword I've always wanted.

T.J.
"It looks like someone threw the coptic, theban, and enochian along with a pinch of the hebrew alphabets into a blender and came up with a new writing. It kinda looks like sanskrit...but not really. With all the magickal societies floating around in the 1800's it might be something obscure or it might be an asian regional script. Your best bet would be to contact someone like Lon Milo DuQuette to see if he recognizes it."

That is exactly what I think as well, TJ. Theben and some stuff thats on the Isiac Tablets. Maybe astroligical as well. If there is a mash up on the sword its gotta be the writing. I will check out Lon Milo DuQuette too. Can I just google him?

Allen:
Thanks for checking out Thai for me, I was wondering about that. Arabic got nixed earlier. A friend pointed out that it could be some kind of greek shorthand or cursive.

I will post some new pics of the sword later this week. Its really beautiful! Im glad this last sword gave me and others some food for thought. Happy Its quite interesting.

inkothemgard!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,920

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok then Morgan

I had another run through some of these titles over coffee. Peterson and and the Medicus (Flayderman/Mowbray the younger) book to more or less confirm some of what my thoughts are. The Medicus collection book is great because both Flayderman and the junior Mowbray don't draw a lot of conclusions without basis. Peterson's silver hilt section is invaluble in (proofed) provenances. They both kind of support my thoughts that for the American tastes and form of the hussar hilts run pretty late in time. A possible distinction of them being the broader "balled" grips but note that in itself does not entirely date the hilt shape. Quite universally though, you are going to find a predilection of langets and these scabbard pins we see on English and continental hilts. The silver tape is not at all unusual on American craftsmanship but the hilt does not well fit their cutlery efforts.

The hussar hilts were enormously popular in a great many countries and spanned several decades. I do see fancy hussar hilts attributed to American work past the 18th century and again, no pins on those. What is quite apparent in that form is what is displayed in galleries and even Neumann's book. Now, after remembering your thoughts of the original sale in formation; look specifically to 302s in the book. There is likely the reasoning for French provenance.. Now, keep in mind when browsing Neumann that he leaves his own trails to notes and that will lead you back to his notes regarding 62s and ordnance regulations specifying stirrup hilts, thus leading to an early possible start of the guard form. Along with 302s, look at 309s and 311s as hunches of American provenance while also noting other swords such as 155,163 and 167. Guess what though. A serious direction of traits leading back to the continental examples.

Some dating hurdles still remain prevalent about this example. Rolling mills vs simpler forging techniques. While it is also possible that this piece is quite early and pre American Revolution, the standards of technology and technique lags behind by several decades in manufacture. This again (to me) could easily point to later than earlier unless there are other evidences placing it earlier (such as a maker's mark). I have English examples of both rolled and hammer forged spadroons that (to me) seem more easily assessed.

More questions than answers really but my hunch is still not of an American origin andfrom the latter part of the 18th century..

Cheers

GC


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Thu 12 Nov, 2009 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your like some kind of Research God, Glen! Big Grin I am going to print out your last response and take it home so I can reference it with my Neuman book.
inkothemgard!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,920

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I go the other way and often keep books open while I'm browsing on the internet. As mentioned in an earlier post, I am often less impressed with my own conclusions the further I go to explore other explanations.

Simple search results shouldn't be a hurdle for any really. The alphabet link I posted was the result of a top hit from searcing a single word. Google is great in spelling tips and other directions to look. This is not true of some sites I work with such as http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ I end up quite frustrated at times until I try different spelling of names and words from earlier times. I was there looking at guilds again yesterday and was nothing less than frustrated.

Cheers

GC
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess it all comes down to what you put in the search engine. I was using W.european talismanic writing/markings, protective markings, 18th cen magical societies etc, ect,. Its always great to have others thrown into the mix who can add something (even if its obvious) that slipped past you.

I actually dont have a computer at home so my searches are all split between computer in the day and books at night. Its very bi-polar. Wink And of course combined with input and reflection from other interested human parties its always a kick!

Actually European swords appeal to my imagination more. Europe is just more sword-centric. And certainly connected to American history in its way. Hence Neumans book. Speaking of; I remember one french hilt in particular that was in Neumans book that looked quite a bit like mine. Neuman said that the sword had an early version of the hussar hilt that was coming into fashion all over europe. I bet its one of the numbered entries you mentioned.
I find the balance to be interesting. For a hanger, its really blade heavy. The ones that I have handled are either much lighter or balanced differently. The diminutive hussar grip is light (though very sturdy) and makes the sword ideal for swinging downward in a chopping motion. Even though it only has a 30 and a half inch blade I wonder if it was made for mounted service. I'm assuming this is a private purchase sword.

inkothemgard!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,920

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try cabbalistic or kabbalistic (alphabet) as a search.

Of many swords I have been collecting, most may well have seen service in America, while the majority were made in England and on the continent. It kind of goes with the period I have centered interest in.

Would you say the following is of American make or American influence? The background is simple distraction but look to the manufacture process itself. What may look like laborious metal chasing of detail is simply one layer applied to the other. As well, the object's image as presented here is a lot larger than real life. I'm off topic but the research techniques still apply.

Cheers

GC



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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

cabbalistic or kabbalistic alphabet was the very first thing I searched and am still searching. I think T.J. is probably pretty close when he says its a mix of more than one esoteric script in use at the time and possibly shorthand or cursive as well.

I'm pretty sure we like the same century at least Glen. Didnt we share some stuff on my dear departed "18th Century Western Sword Appreciation Society" thread on SFI? That one never caught on. The title must have been too wordy. No could dance to it.

That last pic must have a trick question attached to it Glen! Your knowledge of manufacturing technique is way beyond me. Mine is at about zero.

inkothemgard!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,920

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
cabbalistic or kabbalistic alphabet was the very first thing I searched and am still searching.


Yet, it is from where I cut and pasted an informative link for you last night, which you seem to have overlooked.

Any trick might be simply a matter of getting out of what I might put into questioning (myself) and reading. So is that eagle display American manufacture or American influence? There is a fifty/fifty chance of being correct but what else do you see and what makes sense?

Cheers

GC


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually I looked at other sites that had that kind of info (there's alot) including some members of the Ordo Templi Orientis that I know. ( I live in a pretty esoteric city luckily.) But I just hadnt seen those particular links of yours before. Theyre good ones. I wrote some people on one of them. Hopefully I'll hear back.
inkothemgard!
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Nathan M Wuorio




Location: Maine.
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan, That "18th Century Western Sword Appreciation Society" thread sounds interesting. I would have definitely joined if I had known about it earlier! 18th and 19th century swords are my area of interest, although I am still a novice.[/quote]
Nathan.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,920

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan M Wuorio wrote:
Morgan, That "18th Century Western Sword Appreciation Society" thread sounds interesting. I would have definitely joined if I had known about it earlier! 18th and 19th century swords are my area of interest, although I am still a novice.


http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93245
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Glen A Cleeton"]
Quote:

Yet, it is from where I cut and pasted an informative link for you last night, which you seem to have overlooked.

Any trick might be simply a matter of getting out of what I might put into questioning (myself) and reading. So is that eagle display American manufacture or American influence? There is a fifty/fifty chance of being correct but what else do you see and what makes sense?

Cheers

GC


Hey Glen,
Sorry I missed that part of your message. I'm looking, I'm looking! You do mean the crest itself right?

inkothemgard!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,920

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Morgan,

It is more a simple exercise in how one might research something. I've offered some suggestions on how to approach that

Cheers

GC
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen,
I am going to say that it is American influenced due to the detail and finished quality of the eagle which was made abroad. Maybe the backround that its set against is American made.
I am not sure that I could aa Rolling mill forged blade besideds the idea of it having a smoother finish than a hammer forged one. Hmm, maybe I dont even own any hammer forged bladed swords. Could you tell me what you mean by Balled grips? You dont mean 5-ball guards do you?

Here is a sword that is somewhat suggestive of mine Its stirrup-pattern saber from the period circa 1775-1790. I notice that it has the fuller, rounder knuckle guard whereas on mine the knuckle guard makes a very direct descent straight into the pommel or end-cap of the hilt almost in a severe angled line. It does share the capstan rivet/ball on the end of the hilt. What decades span does that point to?



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inkothemgard!


Last edited by Morgan Butler on Thu 12 Nov, 2009 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan,
Does your sword's grip have a backstrap like the one you have pictured?

Jonathan
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,920

PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Balled as in the very large lump grip types. Balled as characterized by Bezdek and others regarding sabres of the late 18th century onward. Not so much really different than the British 1796 lc swords but a more pronounced balled grip.

I can't make much from the picture now offered . I'm honestly not quite sure what the question is anymore, nor what expectations you are looking for from others. Yes, it is another hussar type hilt that fits the general period being discussed. What is the source of the picture and how is/was it described?

Cheers

GC
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan,

It does have a backstrap.

Glen,
I guess I dont have any expectations, but I am enjoying sharing and discussing, as if we were all in the same room together looking at the same sword and at similar ones. You know, for the love of it.

inkothemgard!
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