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What considerations are most important to you when purchasing modern-made mail armour?
Absolute historical accuracy, price is not a consideration
5%
 5%  [ 16 ]
Historical accuracy first, price is secondary
27%
 27%  [ 81 ]
Affordability balanced with compromises to historical accuracy
45%
 45%  [ 132 ]
Affordability first, historical accuracy is secondary
1%
 1%  [ 5 ]
I will not be in the market for mail armour any time soon
19%
 19%  [ 58 ]
Total Votes : 292

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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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Posts: 845

PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Mild steel is not as ductile as bloomery iron and it is more likely to snap upon impact instead of stretching/bending


Enthusiastically agreed!

In particular, several metallurgical examples of rings from artifacts have indicated had very high purity iron with elevated phosphorus (on the order of 0.1 %.)


Do you happen to have a chemical composition and / or results of destructive testing available? If so, I'd really like to have a look at it.

Just a gut feeling, but it seems to me that the homogenity of mild steel would be beneficiary to armour, then again, perhaps not so much with mail due to the small size of the rings. Anyway, it would be really interesting to compare the elongation between historical mail samples and a standard mild steel.
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't have any mechanical tests. As I mentioned earlier I actually had searched for an affordable modern substitute alloy in reasonable round rod form to try some comparative manual forging on. (Thinking of doing a qualitative assessment of how much advantage there could be in terms of ease of forge drawing, cutting with punches, doing less annealing, etc.)

The properties I mention were originally applied in an engineering sense in early 17th industrial making of high quality wire for instruments like harpsicords. The historical use is pretty easy to find references to in the history of wire making. Supposedly the historical iron strings emitted deeper toned sounds than today's steel core composites, but could fail with hazardous consequences unless the material composition was just right. Examples of material of similar composition and analysis suggesting a high degree of cold forming do apply to historical mail. This reference to "Re-assessing the Sophistication of Merovingian Metalworking" has been brought up repeatedly in prior posts. Check out the magnified cross section of a ring from medieval mail in figure 9, and read the assessment of composition and forming process beside it in the article. http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0508/Ehrenreich-0508.html

Although the few scholars interested enough in other sample of mail (Peter Beatson, Vegard Vike, Arne Jouttijarvi) to section it and assess composition did not theorize purpose behind the composition, they did find very similar composition in samples considered to date from 4th century B.D. through 10th century A.D.. Arne Jouttijarvi actually assessed native ores by region and went to far as to suggest that it was improbable that his sample came from anywhere else but a pretty specific region. (Maybe coincidence, but the region was also an primary supplier for the early iron musical strings.)

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Oct, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
I think that they chose the iron that was easiest to pull through a draw plate. Any additional protective benefit was purely coincidental.

Can these posts be split off and moved to a more suitable part of the forum?


Apologies Dan. I just saw this. I will cease further comment here.

Sincerely,
Jared

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Reading list: 25 books

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Oct, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great Feature, great review.

Actually, the review is exceptionelly nice, as the Reeve has become one of my favorite single handed swords (I like those short bladed nimble swords, as my Reeve and the Yeoman). Thanks Michael, it was really nice to read.
IŽd like to add to the Reeves handling characteristics, that it is really fantastic to cut with. Lately, we had a cutting session after our schools seminar, cutting thick Tatami rolls. Even the less experienced scholars did rather well with the cutting. It is really efortless, easy to control. Like a hot knife slicing through butter.
I myself cut water bottles from the least favoring positions, like underarm left side cuts (when doing sword and buckler; I am right handed). The edge geometry is really fantastic for anything like this. So, all Reeve enthusiasts unite! Big Grin
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Alberto Dainese




Location: Padova - Italy
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very good article on mail! Kudos to Mr Howard !
http://www.musicainspirata.it
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
I think that they chose the iron that was easiest to pull through a draw plate. Any additional protective benefit was purely coincidental.

Can these posts be split off and moved to a more suitable part of the forum?


Apologies Dan. I just saw this. I will cease further comment here.


It is an interesting subject. Do you want to start a new thread?
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:


It is an interesting subject. Do you want to start a new thread?


I doubt many will have this much interest, but, I started a thread for those wanting to theorize how the mail would have actually have been made.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=177063#177063

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Bryson Cadle




Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 01 May 2005

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sat 12 Dec, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great article on the maille. Very interesting.
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Harry J. Fletcher




Location: Lost in Texas
Joined: 19 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: Albion Reeve- Review by Micaheal Edelson         Reply with quote

Michael did an outstanding review of this sword which I have by the way. His review reflects my observations in terms of fit and finish to handling. Although I have locked horns with him in good natured disagreements a couple of times we are really together on this sword.

The blade is not too long, blade heavy, or hard to handle. The handling is superb and I mean superb. Because the blade can be controlled by the wrist it is very nimble which is due to its balance and lightness yet heavy enough for a decent slash or cut. The Brazil nut pommel allows for a hammer grip which I feel gives more control than the handshake grip but that is my preference. It can be used for a thrust though not sharply pointed and the free hand placed on the pommel to give added impetus to the thrust.

The 30.25 inche blade length is optimum for foot use rather than from horseback but is my preference for length because it makes for a quicker handling than longer swords. It would be my choice for a melee type fight against adversaries wearing mail or padded jerkins.

So there you have it; looks, handling, authenticity, and most importantly price. Ah yes, price...I feel it is the best sword of the bunch and is way underpriced (pssst...don't tell Albion!) Buy one! Buy two! You won't regret it.

To Study The Edge of History
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