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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam, I though that was made quite clear actually.

Like I said, we have more in common than not and some mutual respect, understanding and civility would be nice. That requites no concessions from anyone just an open mind.
Do you think this is unreasonable?

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Matt Clarke




Location: Perth, Western Australia
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:

Like I said, we have more in common than not and some mutual respect, understanding and civility would be nice. That requites no concessions from anyone just an open mind.
Do you think this is unreasonable?


I think the mutual respect is there, it is just that people don't agree with each other. People from the HEMA side of things have repeatedly said respectfully that many SCA people are skilled fighters. Just because they they disagree on certain points (such as the Martial art thing) doesn't mean there is no respect.

Regards,

Matt

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http://fechtkunst.wordpress.com


Last edited by Matt Clarke on Wed 02 Dec, 2009 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Tsafa wrote:
Johan Gemvik wrote:

Measure is simply a failsafe way to have a student activate the legs for power and move the hip. Doesn't have to be a roll or twist when stepping, only when standing in place.


As Michael also pointed out earlier, the hip motion need not be large.


I think the above (in bold) is very important.

I used to practice all my cuts standing still, and that was also how I analyzed myself with video. All of my attempts at non-telegraphing were also based on cuts launched from the standstill.

Some time ago I made a small change to the way I do my nightly solo practice sessions. I stopped doing cuts from standstill and started taking at least two steps with every cut. Although initially I was just trying to be lazy--economize my practice sessions by combining two things, cuts and footwork--this seemingly small change led to a major change in the way I time my movements and muscle chains (the sequence of what moves what).

What looked like huge telegraphing motions when you transition from standing still to cutting were suddenly completely disguised in the step that takes you into wide measure. I found myself with MUCH more latitude to do things like prestretch and torque the hip and more.

It's amazing how a small artifact can creep into one's practice and ruin everything.

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Adam S.





Joined: 01 Sep 2006

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Adam, I though that was made quite clear actually.

Like I said, we have more in common than not and some mutual respect, understanding and civility would be nice. That requites no concessions from anyone just an open mind.
Do you think this is unreasonable?

Never mind.
I'll bow out now.
Ta.
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Matt Clarke




Location: Perth, Western Australia
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:

I used to practice all my cuts standing still, and that was also how I analyzed myself with video. All of my attempts at non-telegraphing were also based on cuts launched from the standstill.

Some time ago I made a small change to the way I do my nightly solo practice sessions. I stopped doing cuts from standstill and started taking at least two steps with every cut. Although initially I was just trying to be lazy--economize my practice sessions by combining two things, cuts and footwork--this seemingly small change led to a major change in the way I time my movements and muscle chains (the sequence of what moves what).



Yes I think this is important, at least from the Liechtenauer POV. We are told from 3227a to Meyer that we are to stay in motion and to change guards. This motion certainly helps disguise intent, or can be used to feint intent.

I just read this bit in Meyer the other day -

Quote:

Now as regards the postures, I would not have you remain long in any of them, since they are not invented or devised for this purpose, but so that when you draw up your sword for a stroke, and it is time for you to cut in the middle of pulling up as you gather your joints, you will know how to send your sword at once quickly back against him when you reach the furthermost point in drawing up your sword ... but also that after you have pulled up and gathered yourself for this stroke, and at that moment shall send he stroke forth, you shall linger n that furthermost point for just a bit, almost only for the blink of an eye, to reconsider whether it is worth completing your intended stroke, or whether in the mean time a better opportunity has arisen for you ...


1.31R (Forgeng's translation)

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Matt

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William Carew




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 1:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:


I used to practice all my cuts standing still, and that was also how I analyzed myself with video. All of my attempts at non-telegraphing were also based on cuts launched from the standstill.

Some time ago I made a small change to the way I do my nightly solo practice sessions. I stopped doing cuts from standstill and started taking at least two steps with every cut. Although initially I was just trying to be lazy--economize my practice sessions by combining two things, cuts and footwork--this seemingly small change led to a major change in the way I time my movements and muscle chains (the sequence of what moves what).

What looked like huge telegraphing motions when you transition from standing still to cutting were suddenly completely disguised in the step that takes you into wide measure. I found myself with MUCH more latitude to do things like prestretch and torque the hip and more.

It's amazing how a small artifact can creep into one's practice and ruin everything.


Laughing Out Loud Continuous movement is key. The eye is quicker at detecting sudden movement out of stillness than it is at detecting changes in pre-existing movement.

So much of Zufechten is, IMHO, about how to mislead and evade our opponent's perception and collision detection until it is too late for him to save himself. Lots of tactics for this, best shown in person.

Bill

Bill Carew
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Carew wrote:
[
Laughing Out Loud Continuous movement is key. The eye is quicker at detecting sudden movement out of stillness than it is at detecting changes in pre-existing movement.

So much of Zufechten is, IMHO, about how to mislead and evade our opponent's perception and collision detection until it is too late for him to save himself. Lots of tactics for this, best shown in person.

Bill


Collision detection! That seems like an interesting concept to consider and an interesting way to frame the tactical elements of timing, speed and distance management in a tactical way. Cool

Funny but we do this all the time and don't consciously know we are doing it every time we cross a street and time our moves to not get run over. Wink

When first learning to move with a sword we tend to have our feet rooted in place and not use this same every day skill adapted to swordsmanship. The skill is already there but we don't know how to apply it yet and so much of our concentration is taken up by learning the specific that we stop using the general. ( Just a thought Wink ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Matt Clarke




Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKde108jmI

I saw this video and thought the people on this thread would like to discuss it. Laughing Out Loud
Be sure to read the comments. Laughing Out Loud

Regards,

Matt

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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Fri 04 Dec, 2009 1:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matt Clarke wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKde108jmI

I saw this video and thought the people on this thread would like to discuss it. Laughing Out Loud
Be sure to read the comments. Laughing Out Loud


What's so special about it? Typical russian blunt tournament. Yes, they hit hard, yes, they use very little to no historical techniques - they have a whole school of "historical fencing" where the liink with history is marginal at best. At the same time there is many very dedicated reenactors and general history/wma enthusiasts in Russia who know a good deal more about it than people in the vid. And about the comments.. well they are for some part fun, and for sme part - stupid and provocative. In my opinon, anyway. What this vid shows, is that some people who fight with steel blunts tend to whack eachother as hard as SCA activisrs Happy
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Fri 04 Dec, 2009 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matt Clarke wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKde108jmI

I saw this video and thought the people on this thread would like to discuss it. Laughing Out Loud
Be sure to read the comments. Laughing Out Loud


That is a very interesting video indeed. I had fought against two guys from these Russian groups about a year ago. They had not concept of height horizontal shots. They just kept trying to hit my leg and getting killed in the process. I see that the Russian groups are starting to develop somewhat. I see a use of high horizontal cuts to get over the shield. The shots are not very clean, but in a few more years they should start approaching SCA standards. As of now, they look like 2 to 3 year SCA fighters.

I sent a message to the guy that posted the video to get more information. It seems like a counted blow tourney. I have been told thrusts are prohibited. I believe that he low leg is a legal target but I don't see much going down there. I ask the gentleman that posted it if that is because the low leg shots are prohibited or if they don't throw them because of the range disadvantages. I also asked them if they are assuming mail calibration. I will let you guys know any additional info I get.

I thought the comments made after the video were made by children in a childish manor. English is not his first language so it seems like he had no other way to respond except in a childish manor himself.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Fri 04 Dec, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To my experience, most of the tourneys in Russia, and most post-Soviet countries follow generally the same rules: No thrusts, no hits below the knee, and hit must be powerfull enough to be felt. Usually it is either a counted blows in set ammount of time, or untill certain ammunt of solid hits is achewed (exact time/count of hits varries wildly). Sometimes it is legal to kick the shield or hit the lower leg. Usually close contact - like pushing someone is only permitted for a few seconds.
Like I said, their techniques are very adopted towards that specific ruleset - for example, you often see the sword held over the head with point of blade nearly resting on the upper edge of the shield - which is supposed to protest against the sideways strikes over the upper edge fo the shield. Obviously, such a positioning is not very effective if it is permited to hit below the knee..
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Dec, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess the rules vary from region to region. The two Russians I fought last year focused their entire strategy on trying to hit the low leg beneath my heater shield. They said that is how they fight back home. As I shifted my defense more in that area I found that they did not have very developed head shot for fighting around shield. That is why I am so intrigued by this Russian video. These guys have some ability to take head shots.

I disagree with your conclusion of the effectiveness of a hanging guard over the shield when low leg strikes are permitted. It can be used effectively even when the low leg hits are allowed. In that case I usually kick out my bottom cornet more to cut the angle of low line attacks and depend on my sword more to block the head. I do that 50% of the time. The other 50% I keep my shield corner high and use my sword to cover my leg. In that instance I will usually lead with the sword leg. The other way I lead with the shield leg. Both have pros and cons. I generally try to figure out what makes my opponent most uncomfortable and favor that.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Fri 04 Dec, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, aws I said thhis is how most of the tourneys happen - in last few years I have seen more occasions where attacks on lower leg are permitted than before, and certainly some groups have been training with such attacks since the start.

As for this defensive position, I happen to fully agree with mr. Clements that this position offers no real improovement in defense, you can not really make any serious attack from it, especially when thrusts are not allowed. But let's not derail the thread with it, shall we?
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