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Andrew Maxwell




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 03 May 2009

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Andrew Maxwell wrote:
Michael Edelson wrote:

btw...you and I seem to have done the impossible! We've killed the SCA topic! Hooray for us! Happy Happy


Sorry Michael... it's like a bruise, I can't resist prodding it to make sure it still hurts Big Grin

Anyway, (and hopefully this will be my final post on this Wink ), I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding between you and me during the earlier unpleasantness (once again, sorry about that). I wasn't actually (intentionally) advocating always moving tip first- I was advocating always moving sword first. Quite a different thing, as you have also pointed out in this thread Happy

Also, I'm only talking fractionally first- I try to have the terminus of strike, arm movement, torso movement and step all at approximately the same time. Unfortunately I don't currently have any video of my action to show you; overall I don't think we're miles apart anyway, from watching the way you cut (not that I think we are in complete agreement still, of course). If you look back you'll see what I was originally most against was moving the sword last.


You know Andrew at first I didnīt really agree with this, but recently I spent some time working this out and I must say I now completely agree with you...at least when a shield isnīt involved. I think a shield lets one get away with more...not that one SHOULD mind you, but one CAN. If you donīt move the sword first, you donīt generate threat...but since we are talking mere fractions of a second, the more important part is that if you donīt move that sword first to take the line, you end up binding off line and then you die. I found that all those years of doing SCA has lead me to develop this bad habit of using my hips first...and quite frankly itīs kinda annoying me right now(I didnīt even notice I started doing the SCA hip motions when doing WMA). So I should really thank you for helping me. I plan on using this newfound nugget of knowledge in my next SCA greatsword match hehe.


I'm glad you got something useful out of this- complete lack of politeness or tact (on my part) aside, that was intended to be helpful, not just obnoxious...
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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Andrew Maxwell wrote:
Michael Edelson wrote:

btw...you and I seem to have done the impossible! We've killed the SCA topic! Hooray for us! Happy Happy


Sorry Michael... it's like a bruise, I can't resist prodding it to make sure it still hurts Big Grin

Anyway, (and hopefully this will be my final post on this Wink ), I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding between you and me during the earlier unpleasantness (once again, sorry about that). I wasn't actually (intentionally) advocating always moving tip first- I was advocating always moving sword first. Quite a different thing, as you have also pointed out in this thread Happy

Also, I'm only talking fractionally first- I try to have the terminus of strike, arm movement, torso movement and step all at approximately the same time. Unfortunately I don't currently have any video of my action to show you; overall I don't think we're miles apart anyway, from watching the way you cut (not that I think we are in complete agreement still, of course). If you look back you'll see what I was originally most against was moving the sword last.


You know Andrew at first I didnīt really agree with this, but recently I spent some time working this out and I must say I now completely agree with you...at least when a shield isnīt involved. I think a shield lets one get away with more...not that one SHOULD mind you, but one CAN. If you donīt move the sword first, you donīt generate threat...but since we are talking mere fractions of a second, the more important part is that if you donīt move that sword first to take the line, you end up binding off line and then you die. I found that all those years of doing SCA has lead me to develop this bad habit of using my hips first...and quite frankly itīs kinda annoying me right now(I didnīt even notice I started doing the SCA hip motions when doing WMA). So I should really thank you for helping me. I plan on using this newfound nugget of knowledge in my next SCA greatsword match hehe.


The distinction has to be made here between what actually moves first and what enters measure first.

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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Teague wrote:


Your problem is the belief that you must hack a person in half with each blow. It's not really needed when doing freeplay in T-shirts and shorts with any trainer. Nor is it needed in period with sharps as the system shown is an unarmoured style.



I agree. I fence rapier too which is an unarmored style. About 10 lbs of pressure with a sharp pointy blade in sufficient in unarmed combat. A two or three inch thrust is all that is needed.

There are three levels of calibration. Unarmored, mail and plate . I consider the middle category to include layers of linen, leather and mail. When a tunic or surcoat is worn over the middle category you can never be sure exactly what it would take to bring a man down. Is he wearing 6 oz leather or 14 oz leather? Is it boiled hard? Same cane be said of mail. I have come across and seen in museums a variety of mail in what would offer various levels of protection. Of course if its covered, you have not chance of knowing. Layers of line offer good protection too from incidental cuts but zilch against a hard blow.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

omg this is really going around in literal circles.

The same exact things are being said by the same people!

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Adam S.





Joined: 01 Sep 2006

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 7:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're right, Michael, it has come full circle. Wink

Bill Tsafa wrote:
I agree. I fence rapier too which is an unarmored style. About 10 lbs of pressure with a sharp pointy blade in sufficient in unarmed combat. A two or three inch thrust is all that is needed.


I'm sorry, Tsafa, but a sharp rapier blade doesn't need even 10lbs of pressure.
We tested that (At an SCA event!) and it took barely anything to get through a linen dublet and shirt that was wrapped around a watermelon.*

You are right about the thrust though. At least, if you believe what they put in documentaries about stab wounds on the History Channel...

In any case, I think that the reference being made was to longsword duels, but I didn't write the post that you're responding to so I don't know for sure.




*I know, I remember that watermelon thread too. Just saying. Big Grin Laughing Out Loud
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry Bill, of course I wouldnīt feel ĻsafeĻ wearing chainmail and having somebody whack at me with a real sword...we arenīt saying that the armor isnīt foolproof. Please for the love of god, just stop that idiocy. But there is some pretty good evidence that armor doesnīt act the way you think it does. I mean honestly, your lumping linen, soft leather and hardened leather all together. I would not fight a person in linen clothing the same as a person in hardened leather.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 11:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:


The distinction has to be made here between what actually moves first and what enters measure first.


Well of course...but try moving your hips first and see what it does to...well everything else :P . I have been working on this some more and moving the hips first really messes up quite a lot. And even SCA dukes move their hips first so I will rule the SCA great swors scene...muhahahaha Laughing Out Loud .
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 2:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
omg this is really going around in literal circles.

If only there was a way to attach a dynamo to this discussion the world's energy problem would be solved Big Grin

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov, 2009 3:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Michael Edelson wrote:


The distinction has to be made here between what actually moves first and what enters measure first.


Well of course...but try moving your hips first and see what it does to...well everything else :P . I have been working on this some more and moving the hips first really messes up quite a lot. And even SCA dukes move their hips first so I will rule the SCA great swors scene...muhahahaha Laughing Out Loud .


I've given it a shot a couple of times. Happy

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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Michael Edelson wrote:


The distinction has to be made here between what actually moves first and what enters measure first.


Well of course...but try moving your hips first and see what it does to...well everything else :P . I have been working on this some more and moving the hips first really messes up quite a lot. And even SCA dukes move their hips first so I will rule the SCA great swors scene...muhahahaha Laughing Out Loud .

Please test this with a couple of dukes and post the results on youtube.

Measure is simply a failsafe way to have a student activate the legs for power and move the hip. Doesn't have to be a roll or twist when stepping, only when standing in place.
The martial Philosophy of Jeet-Kune-Do applied to Measure equates the boxer (and SCA) hip coil that makes the body do the same thing but without the step. It's not the hip leading but the attack side leg pushing off and the hip bone being moved by that, then the rest of the body is activated up the spine like a coiling and uncoiling spring. Power comes mainly from the legs and torso musle groups, just like when stepping.
Since historically, Boxing technique was developed as far back as the Illiad or far earlier, and there were plenty of situations when measure could not be applied en mass on a battlefield withot breaking shield wall or even most other battle line formations, and tight spaces combat on ships, in towers or even tunnels would sometimes prevent stepping but necessitating blow exchange, it's quite unreasonable to think this was never used historically. I also see the hip coil used by kids, naturally. I expect this means it's inherent in our nature to use.

Still, to be fair there are those who advocate measure in the SCA too, like my knight.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge


Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh dear God! It is resurrected again.

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent [thread]?"

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Johan Gemvik"
Measure is simply a failsafe way to have a student activate the legs for power and move the hip. Doesn't have to be a roll or twist when stepping, only when standing in place.
[/quote]

As Michael also pointed out earlier, the hip motion need not be large.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven Reich wrote:
Oh dear God! It is resurrected again.

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent [thread]?"

Steve

Please explain your attitude.
Is this that you don't feel the SCA can be discussed without you feeling forced to oppose it out of principle, or that no discussion whatsoever can take place without your involvement on this forum and it's starting to feel like a burden?

I for one only read and post in forums that interest me.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge


Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Tsafa wrote:
As Michael also pointed out earlier, the hip motion need not be large.

Yes! The hip movement itself is often not even visible.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Please explain your attitude.
Is this that you don't feel the SCA can be discussed without you feeling forced to oppose it out of principle, or that no discussion whatsoever can take place without your involvement on this forum and it's starting to feel like a burden?

It's a variation on a well-known pseudo-historical quote from British ecclesiastical history. The point is that this thread has accumulated 30 pages and wandered through the same arguments at least three times.

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Andrew Maxwell




Location: New Zealand
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven Reich wrote:
Oh dear God! It is resurrected again.

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent [thread]?"

Steve


That actually made me laugh out loud Big Grin

Just when you thought it was safe to venture back into the forum...

Garlic is for vampires, silver for werewolves- what do you use for unkillable threads? A bucket of whiteout maybe? WTF?!
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven Reich wrote:
Johan Gemvik wrote:
Please explain your attitude.
Is this that you don't feel the SCA can be discussed without you feeling forced to oppose it out of principle, or that no discussion whatsoever can take place without your involvement on this forum and it's starting to feel like a burden?

It's a variation on a well-known pseudo-historical quote from British ecclesiastical history. The point is that this thread has accumulated 30 pages and wandered through the same arguments at least three times.

Steve

And you're posting the quote because you feel a burden to have to comment anything written here or because you'd forbid us to discuss the topic?

Let me put it this way. Do you believe we have more common ground in what we all do here than some here would be willing to admit? I do. Seems quite a few others here do too. Do you feel it takes away from what you do that you might have some commom ground with the SCA? Perhaps, dare I say, more in common that not. With Cut & Thrust at the very least.
If this takes 30 pages to explain, over and over, whose fault do you think it is really? The hardcore nay sayers or us happy buggers who just want us all to be one big happy family with just a tiny bit of mutual respect and consideration?

I invite you all to read the very first opening posts again, it puts certain things into perspective.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do believe that this is the most successful discussion held to date in the forum on this topic. I think a lot of common ground was found. I nominated this thread as a spotlight topic.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
And you're posting the quote because you feel a burden to have to comment anything written here or because you'd forbid us to discuss the topic?

Let me put it this way. Do you believe we have more common ground in what we all do here than some here would be willing to admit? I do. Seems quite a few others here do too. Do you feel it takes away from what you do that you might have some commom ground with the SCA? Perhaps, dare I say, more in common that not. With Cut & Thrust at the very least.
If this takes 30 pages to explain, over and over, whose fault do you think it is really? The hardcore nay sayers or us happy buggers who just want us all to be one big happy family with just a tiny bit of mutual respect and consideration?

I invite you all to read the very first opening posts again, it puts certain things into perspective.

No, I'm posting the quote as a humorous commentary on a thread that is the electronic manifestation of beating a dead horse into dirty spot on the ground. That is, I was making a joke.

Honestly, the quote was a joke and I suspect that you don't get it because (I assume) that you're not a native English speaker and thus probably didn't get the allusion to St. Thomas a Beckett. There was no slight intended to the SCA (or anyone else), just a humorous note that any time that this thread looks like it will finally die down, it seems to be resurrected.

As to whose "fault" it is, well, it's all of our faults--everyone single one of us who couldn't keep his figurative mouth shut and felt the need to post (you'll note that I'm included in that).

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Adam S.





Joined: 01 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan,

I mean no insult, but I'm curious: What is it EXACTLY that you would like to accomplish in this thread?
As was said before, we've gone around this topic several times now.
I would like to know what you'd like to gain at this point.

    Is there a concession that you would like the non-SCA people to make in regards to the SCA and it's fighting practices?
    Is there a specific point that you are attempting to share?
    What do you want to hear, negative or positive, that would satisfy you intellectually?
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