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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle just to clarify, I certainly don't think that SCA battles are the "real deal" any more than any of these other pursuits. I was merely wondering if the HMA world had attempted to delve into this, and if so how and what have they learned.

To be frank I think that each of these pursuits bring us closer to understanding. If it is someone's stated goal (it certainly is mine) to understand pre-firearm warfare than all of these groups have much to offer, but of course they are all missing a lot.

Even within the SCA there is the ever present debate over what it is that "we" are trying to achieve. Of course this is a farcical argument because each person brings to the table their own goals and desires. I can only imagine that within the WMA and HMA communities the same variety of goals exists.

My very limited understanding of the texts that HMA practitioners study from, were largely treatises on single combat, or small melees that were apparently rampant in medieval Europe. I have then supposed (probably wrongly) that the primary focus of HMA is something like streetfighting, is that somewhat correct?

So my next question is how does this translate into larger conflicts, or should it? Was the body of work that HMA practitioners study never intended for the battlefield? Was it all designed for Capulets and Montagues?

I have always had a passing interest in HMA, but I would immediately find myself wanting to see these techniques applied to hundreds or thousands of fighters. I would just dearly love to see the "real" techniques applied en masse, and wondered if anyone steeped in HMA had given it a go. Surely they would learn a lot, and so would the rest of us. [/i]

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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Flame war senses tingling... WTF?!
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam I try to give people the benefit of the doubt until they actually get out of line, but yeah, you can always cut the tension with a knife when this subject comes up. Sad to say that people with such closely related interests have dug such deep trenches.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Randall, as a member of the SCA, I find your analogy of SCA combat to gang bangers quite offensive.

I am very sorry for any insult. My examples were indeed poorly worded. I was simply trying to show how fighting does not always involve a martial art.

Quote:
Also of course law enforcement and military won´t ask how to do a wrap shot...just like they won´t ask ARMA how you do half swording.

Acturally at the ARMA International event in 2003 Matt Larsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Larsen), the Commandant of the US Army Combatives School and the man who wrote the book for the US Army, said that he was interested in how ARMA members used half swording since Historical European martial arts has implications for bayonet fighting. One of the most fun actives at the event was the group sparring in which Matt's colleague (a SFC Ranger who's name I cannot remember) attempted to take some of us down unarmed but to the best of my knowledge failed each time since we would simply pull our padded swords back to half-sword with the point close of our bodies.





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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
My very limited understanding of the texts that HMA practitioners study from, were largely treatises on single combat, or small melees that were apparently rampant in medieval Europe. I have then supposed (probably wrongly) that the primary focus of HMA is something like streetfighting, is that somewhat correct?

Indeed the problem with group fighting in HEMA is one of sources. Even small melees are rarely described in detail in the technical sources (actually I'd say never to my knowledge but I hardly know about all the treatises, especially medieval). The overwhelming part of the litterature is one vs. one, with equal weapons. Then you have some unmatched weapons (the earliest example of it that I can remember is in Dürer with messer+dagger?), and some self-defense, mainly unarmed against dagger. You have rare cases of one vs. many, but even that is hardly small melee... I never even saw two vs. two in a source treatise.

For the most part the context of the sources is not even streetfighting but dueling or classroom, with the obvious exception of unarmed vs. dagger.

There are some group fights in events, for example in the last Dijon event there was a competition with five vs. five bouts. While fun to watch and participate in I don't think it's considered as an historical part, more a general test of skills, much like our modern bouting is probably not historical but is necessary to test ourselves.

We could possibly start from the knowledge of weapons and armour and try to reconstruct something that seems to work, in a sort of experimental archeology, but that's not historical, i.e. the techniques are not directly validated by the men of the past. That's the main divide between reenactors and historical martial artists in France at least, I guess the SCA is closer to reenactors as far as fighting is concerned, just with different safety rules. Both try to reconstruct something without sources.

Regards,

(EDIT: wrong source for messer+dagger)

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Anders Nilsson




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:


We could possibly start from the knowledge of weapons and armour and try to reconstruct something that seems to work, in a sort of experimental archeology, but that's not historical, i.e. the techniques are not directly validated by the men of the past. That's the main divide between reenactors and historical martial artists in France at least, I guess the SCA is closer to reenactors as far as fighting is concerned, just with different safety rules. Both try to reconstruct something without sources.

Regards,



I agree. But there are sources to uses. One can look at command drills. These can be found since roman times. By using these as a base, and the knowledge of how weapons are used, one can experiement and probably come quite close to the truth.

On other forums i visit it has been talked about Living HEMA and Battlefield HEMA. I think that the battlefield use of weapons is the next thing to explore.

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 6:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

E Stafford approached me before posting and ran this post by me. Though I knew it might generate controversy, the fact remains that is an interesting and valid opinion that should spur some vigorous discussion.

If you're in the WMA or SCA communities, please bear in mind that you will almost certainly not change the opinion of those who disagree with you in this thread. So don't try. Happy Present your opinion and let it go.

Also bear in mind, that there is nothing to get in a huff over. Though people can and should take this stuff seriously, for most of us it is simply a hobby, and not worth getting upset over.

Let's all make sure this doesn't devolve into a flame war. Happy

Happy

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Gavin,

Gavin Kisebach wrote:
My very limited understanding of the texts that HMA practitioners study from, were largely treatises on single combat, or small melees that were apparently rampant in medieval Europe. I have then supposed (probably wrongly) that the primary focus of HMA is something like streetfighting, is that somewhat correct?


It depends on the art in question. Most of the medieval treatises are focused predominantly on the judicial duel, though there is the implication of using these techniques both in war (such as Liechtenauer's teaching verse mentioning learning the art to help your honour in war) as well as personal defence (such as the various techniques dealing with two opponents ganging up on one).

Some treatises, such as the 18th c. treatise of Donald McBane, are focused more on "street smart" fighting. George Silver's treatise talks about the use of weapons in personal defense and dueling, but makes note of the importance of learning weapons that can be used both in single combat as well as military. Not many are explicitly about mass combat, though, and this is probably because mass combat is a different animal, where a leader's tactics are much more important to the outcome than individual skill. (though the latter certainly helps!) So if you want to learn mass combat, the fencing treatises are helpful, but military manuals are probably much more important.

Quote:
So my next question is how does this translate into larger conflicts, or should it?


It all depends on the context of what we're trying to learn. I'm interested in bringing these arts back to life, and for that to happen, I feel we need to learn these arts as they were recorded. Since the majority of them were recorded in the context of the duel, I want to revive this first and foremost. I experiment with multiple opponents sometimes as an intellectual and physical excercise, but it is tangental to my main goal.

Quote:
I have always had a passing interest in HMA, but I would immediately find myself wanting to see these techniques applied to hundreds or thousands of fighters. I would just dearly love to see the "real" techniques applied en masse, and wondered if anyone steeped in HMA had given it a go. Surely they would learn a lot, and so would the rest of us. [/i]


There are some. For myself, learning Liechtenauer's art is akin to training in Asian martial arts, which also don't do mass combat. Again, I suspect this has much more to do with the fact that mass combat has much more to do with a leader's skill in tactics than individual combat. So I don't study with the goal of doing mass combat, though I confess to wanting to try my hand at a Pennsic War battle one of these days. Happy It always has looked like a blast to me.

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Chris Arrington





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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Gang bangers are very good at killing each other but they totally suck at protecting themselves. Note that you don't see the military or law-enforcement asking them to teach them how to do a gansta shot. The SCA is very good at what it does, I sometimes like to what them beat the crap out of each other.


Two points.

1.) Actually gang bangers are very bad at what they do. Just look at the number of shooting that occur that never hit anything, or hit some totally innocent bystander. Unfortunately, as my Grandpa use to say.... "even a blind squirel finds a nut once in a while."

2.) To raise a side discussion:

Have you ever watched the video footage of riot police in action? Especially some of those from South Korea (wow do those guys know how to throw a riot!)? Its very similar to what the SCA does in field battles. And I would bet quite a lot, that many SCA people out there have thought before.... "Man we could kick their &@^%!% !!" Maybe the police could learn a thing or too about mass melee. Wink

Not to overly praise the SCA, there are many things that could be made better, but if you enjoy "sword fighting/medieval battle like activities" the fun of spending a week at Pennsic and experiencing all the battles is momentous. The rush of standing in the shield wall during the field battle and seeing thousands of armored screaming "warriors" rushing at you is something that can't be described.

One last comment about safety. Yes you have to make compromises, but its necessary. Even if you have to sacrifice some "realism". Most of us are normal people with normal jobs and lives (some of you jousting guys aside Wink ). And even then injuries can occur. Last April at a SCA event, during a large bridge battle, someone (a large 300+ pound body) fell and rolled into the side of my leg, pining my leg, and taking me to the ground. After screaming on the ground for a few minutes, I found out I had a torn MCL and a torn ACL knee ligaments. ACL replacement Surgery and 6 months of healing, and I'm just now starting to walk without a limp. In about 6 more months I hope to run without pain, and maybe be able to actually participate in sports and "martial activities". But at my age.... well, being old sucks.
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Arrington wrote:
Actually gang bangers are very bad at what they do. Just look at the number of shooting that occur that never hit anything, or hit some totally innocent bystander. Unfortunately, as my Grandpa use to say.... "even a blind squirel finds a nut once in a while."


Good point. I should have said Gang-Bangers are better at killing each other than they are at protecting themselves. I fully agree that the shooting skill of GBs are really bad - thankfully.

Ran
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I somewhat doubt that the gang analogies are leading anywhere in this discussion...
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I somewhat doubt that the gang analogies are leading anywhere in this discussion...


Amen to that.

Since the Randall brought up the interest of Military/LE in the ARMA, I suppose you might be interested to note that the SCA does in fact help train both military and law enforcement for riots.

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/inkvision/sets/1115595/

They did this at Fort Lewis when I was an Army MP, and it was one of my first exposures to the SCA. The RCMPs also train annually with the SCA. It makes sense, doesn't it?

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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: SCA         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:

Just because an active involves fighting does not make it a martial art. WMA is about personal defense, that is why the historical masters called it the Science of Defense rather than the science of offense. Gang bangers are very good at killing each other but they totally suck at protecting themselves. Note that you don't see the military or law-enforcement asking them to teach them how to do a gansta shot. The SCA is very good at what it does, I sometimes like to what them beat the crap out of each other. But note that you also don't see the military or law-enforcement asking th SCA to teach them how to do a wrap shot. The SCA fight hard and have lots of fun, but it is what it is and it is not a martial art.



Randal, I have two friends who are officers at the Triborro Bridge Authority in NYC who have made good use of flat snaps an off-sides plenty of times while on duty. So you are wrong that point.

As far as personal defense, vs naked aggression, you will find that most high level SCA fights often last a minute or two, because of the highly defensive style of fighting with shields. Most WMA fights including the ARMA videos I have seen last about 6 seconds. What might seem like just beating away to you is actually blocks being made. Who is being defensive?

You say SCA fighting is not a Martial Art. Well please explain to me what a martial art is. Most dictionaries do include sport fighting as a martial art. If you prefer to use a more strict definition, then let us then stick to the etymology of the word, which can not be disputed. Martial refers to the Roman God of War, Mars. So Mar-tial means war-like. This may disqualify SCA fighting because perhaps we can not prove for certain that the techniques we use were ever used in war in the exact same way we use them... but it also disqualifies WMA techniques. There is no reference in any of the manuals that the techniques shown there were ever used in a real war. It says nobles, knights and squires should learn the techniques... but it does not say if they should be used in war... We only see them used in tournament or singles duels. That is what the historical evidence shows. Anything beyond that is guesswork. I am sorry to say Randal that this super strict definition disqualifies WMA as a martial art too. Of course this makes no sense, both WMA and SCA are martial arts. So is Judo, Kendo and Philippine stick fighting. Furthermore there is a lot of cross over in a lot of the strikes because the body can only move in so many ways and has not drastically changed shape in the last 1000 years.

Once you go down the path of exclusion... you ultimately exclude yourself...

Respectfully
Vassilis

Edit: reading down the rest of the posts I see that other people already mentioned the use of SCA training in law enforcement and the fact that the historical manuals focus on tournament combat. I did not mean to repeat the facts. Awesome link Galvin, I bookmarked that for future reference.

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Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: SCA         Reply with quote

I for one am willing to concede that SCA combat is a martial art. Or rather, it can me a martial art, depending on who is studying it and how serious they are about their studies.

That said, just because something is a martial art, doesn't mean it's any good. And sometimes something that can be good is ruined by rules. For example, I used to teach WTF TKD professionally. WTF TKD can be a great martial art, but at the higher levels is completely ruined as a combat art by competition rules, and this is why I ultimately decided to quit doing it. If you remove those rules, and get rid of the techniques developed around those rules, it regains its viability.

There are people in the SCA who study WMA to make what they do more realistic. There are people who engage in fringe activities, such as combat with less restrictive rules, grappling etc. There are also people who whack each other repeteadly without purpose or understanding.

In other words, there is too much going on in the SCA to paint it all with a single brush stroke.

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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Or rather, it can me a martial art, depending on who is studying it and how serious they are about their studies.


That, Michael, is an excellent and broadly applicable statement. I studied Kenpo as a teenager. For some folks it was a serious study, and for others is was a way to get out of the house or a fitness program.

There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: SCA         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
I for one am willing to concede that SCA combat is a martial art. Or rather, it can me a martial art, depending on who is studying it and how serious they are about their studies.

That said, just because something is a martial art, doesn't mean it's any good. And sometimes something that can be good is ruined by rules. For example, I used to teach WTF TKD professionally. WTF TKD can be a great martial art, but at the higher levels is completely ruined as a combat art by competition rules, and this is why I ultimately decided to quit doing it. If you remove those rules, and get rid of the techniques developed around those rules, it regains its viability.

There are people in the SCA who study WMA to make what they do more realistic. There are people who engage in fringe activities, such as combat with less restrictive rules, grappling etc. There are also people who whack each other repeteadly without purpose or understanding.

In other words, there is too much going on in the SCA to paint it all with a single brush stroke.


That is fair enough Michael. The intent and goal of the practitioner plays a big role in any martial art. Everything you said applies to any martial art. I am sure we all seen WMA videos on You Tube of people playing "sword tag". There is also a lot of high quality stuff there too.

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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not going to comment directly on the validity/accuracy of SCA "combat" as a martial art, I'll let others who never tire of it to try and saw down that tree. However, I do find this statement very interesting:

Have you ever watched the video footage of riot police in action? Especially some of those from South Korea (wow do those guys know how to throw a riot!)? Its very similar to what the SCA does in field battles. And I would bet quite a lot, that many SCA people out there have thought before.... "Man we could kick their &@^%!% !!" Maybe the police could learn a thing or too about mass melee.

Having used riot control tactics as an LEO, as well as seeing Korean and Japanese riot police in action, I agree with the validity of SCA techniques in this context. In fact, many of the techniques for using baton and shield are exactly the same, which is understandable since they both involve whopping someone with a stick while behind a shield. The best riot police I've ever seen are the english, impressive. An english Bobby once told me they expect to have at least three fatalities at every major football game, with one of those being an officer. Their techniques are very direct and highly effective and would look very familiar to SCAdians.

This is the best analogy I've yet seen for the practical applicability of SCA "combat".
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 1:39 am    Post subject: Re: SCA         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
I for one am willing to concede that SCA combat is a martial art. Or rather, it can me a martial art, depending on who is studying it and how serious they are about their studies.

That said, just because something is a martial art, doesn't mean it's any good. And sometimes something that can be good is ruined by rules. For example, I used to teach WTF TKD professionally. WTF TKD can be a great martial art, but at the higher levels is completely ruined as a combat art by competition rules, and this is why I ultimately decided to quit doing it. If you remove those rules, and get rid of the techniques developed around those rules, it regains its viability.

There are people in the SCA who study WMA to make what they do more realistic. There are people who engage in fringe activities, such as combat with less restrictive rules, grappling etc. There are also people who whack each other repeteadly without purpose or understanding.

In other words, there is too much going on in the SCA to paint it all with a single brush stroke.


Actually, that is why I lean towards SCA as a martial sport...like the WTF TKD (I also consider that a martial sport). While there are people who use SCA combat to try and drawn out and learn from, the vast majority of the SCA is goal oriented at winning the match...just like the WTF TKD. Buy yes I do agree most adamantly about your post...even in HEMA there are people who get so wrapped up in winning that they lose sight of the martial art and it becomes like a martial sport as well as having SCA people use SCA combat as a martial art. The distinction really does lie in the practitioner, not so much the art.
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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
You say SCA fighting is not a Martial Art. Well please explain to me what a martial art is.

It isn't.

Quote:
If you prefer to use a more strict definition, then let us then stick to the etymology of the word, which can not be disputed. Martial refers to the Roman God of War, Mars. So Mar-tial means war-like

Right. And the SCA has no lineage or connection whatsoever to any codified set of skills and techniques developed for war.

More power to you if you like the SCA, and if you believe you can translate skills you have picked up there to reality, well done. I'm sure there are plenty of weight trainers whose lifestyle would give them an edge in combat. Doesn't make weight training a martial art though.

Quote:
This may disqualify SCA fighting because perhaps we can not prove for certain that the techniques we use were ever used in war in the exact same way we use them... but it also disqualifies WMA techniques. There is no reference in any of the manuals that the techniques shown there were ever used in a real war. It says nobles, knights and squires should learn the techniques... but it does not say if they should be used in war... We only see them used in tournament or singles duels. That is what the historical evidence shows. Anything beyond that is guesswork.

During the period in which they were codified and taught, the "German" stlyes were known as the Kunst des Fechtens, or the "Art of Fighting". They used contemporary weapons to prepare nobles for situations in which their lives would be at stake. They weren't trying to recreate an idealised version of history, they were training to fight with the weapons of their day in the most efficient way possible.

Also, are you suggesting duels fought to the death do not qualify as combat? WTF?!
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Eric Meulemans
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I will try to keep this brief, as it goes against my instinct to say anything on this matter at all, and, as you all may have noticed, the more one says, the more likely one is to be misconstrued.

First of all, I think that comparing the SCA to WMA completely ignores the fact that the SCA involves very much more than combat. While WMA focuses very specifically on the reconstruction of historical martial arts, it does not provide the broad spectrum of non-combat activites and fantasy roleplay the SCA delights in. The latter being an aspect most WMA groups intentionally avoid as counter to their stated objectives.

Now, like many of us here, I've had similar "discussions" about SCA vs. WMA many times before, but I'll admit that I simply enjoy debate. The reality of it is, they are two very different animals and they fuflfill different needs. It is completely possible for the two groups to co-exist and play their games with as little or as much interaction with one another as one group or the other desires. And of course, in both the SCA and WMA, regional and local groups vary considerably in their attitudes on all things.

Also, while you (and I) can list any number of things we don't like about the SCA, it has nevertheless contributed greatly to the the rise of medievalism and medievalist activities, including WMA. Take a moment and think of the number of WMA instructors and group founders who began in the SCA or even actively remain with them. It has been place of meeting, discussion, disagreement, division, and even (sometimes particularly) through this, a source of inspiration.
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