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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 9:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a mate with a Chinese tattoo that literally translates as "a chinese word". It's hilarious when he ensnares people in a conversation loop when they ask about his tattoos. Happy
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 247

PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim M. wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I believe I read or heard somewhere that the Finnish had their own alphabet of runes (not to be confused with the Finnish music/poem form)? The alphabet supposedly was very similar the Futhark alphabet.


I'll just copy some of what I sent to Myles in a PM to address this.

The sword was found in a women’s grave in Tavastland in current day central Finland. It is dated to sometime in the eleventh century.The history that I read on this area leads me to believe that the inhabitants may have been dominated by pagan Finns at least until 13th century when Sweden finally gained control of Tavastland in their second crusade. However, Finland also marked the Eastern edge of the Viking expansion according to some of the maps I’ve read with settlements showing up in ernest in the area in the 11th century. This woman could have also been from one of those Swedish Viking settlements. The end of the eleventh century is also the accepted time of the end of the so called Viking age and the beginning of the Medieval age.

Any one who has information regarding central Finland during the 11th century would be welcome to clarify us as to the probable nationality of this owner of this sword.

If she was a Swedish Viking, I believe the Younger Futhark short-twig runes would be more appropriate. However, I know absolutely nothing about Finnish Runes.

Drawing from the Albion Sword Site http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...lkyrja.htm



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"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Tim M.





Joined: 21 Jan 2007

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Up until the Swedish invasion of Finland in the mid-1200s, Finland was predominately a pagan collection of hunters and trappers, but it is agreed among most historians that there were times of Viking presence in Finland due to evidence of imported blades and such. What isn't agreed though is whether or not the Swedish or any other Viking group ever settled in Finland, mainly due to the fact that the Finnish people are not even mentioned in manuscripts until the 1000s. The closest confirmed settlement near Finland is off the coast in the Gulf of Finland.

Whether or not the sword is native to Finland is difficult to say. Even if the sword did not belong to a Viking invader, more often than not the swords or at least the blades were imported, and the patterns on the hilt are similar to the Scandinavian Urnes Style, which is credited for the most part to Norway. However, it is still possible a Finn made it or belonged to a high ranked member of a group of Finnish people.
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 247

PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim M. wrote:
Up until the Swedish invasion of Finland in the mid-1200s, Finland was predominately a pagan collection of hunters and trappers, but it is agreed among most historians that there were times of Viking presence in Finland due to evidence of imported blades and such. What isn't agreed though is whether or not the Swedish or any other Viking group ever settled in Finland, mainly due to the fact that the Finnish people are not even mentioned in manuscripts until the 1000s. The closest confirmed settlement near Finland is off the coast in the Gulf of Finland.


This has me a bit confused. Were the Finns not also considered part of the Viking culture with similar customs, writing, language and deities?

Tim M. wrote:
Whether or not the sword is native to Finland is difficult to say. Even if the sword did not belong to a Viking invader, more often than not the swords or at least the blades were imported, and the patterns on the hilt are similar to the Scandinavian Urnes Style, which is credited for the most part to Norway. However, it is still possible a Finn made it or belonged to a high ranked member of a group of Finnish people.


Given the time period and the Urnes style on the pommel and hilt, I'm pretty satisfied that this was probably a home grown sword. So my question is how did Finnish Runes differ from the Younger Futhark Short-Twig Runes of the Sweds in the 11 century?

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Tim M.





Joined: 21 Jan 2007

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu 22 Oct, 2009 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Contrary to popular belief, the Finns were not part of the Viking culture. They were first and foremost hunters and trappers rather than traders, sailors, and invaders like the Vikings. Up until the 1200s when the Swedes annexed Finland, there technically was not even a Finland to speak because there was no central government.

Although the writing of the Finns was similar to the Scandinavians, their language was completely different in origins and structure and phonics. Their language belongs to the Finno-Ugric group of languages that for the most part includes Estonia and Finland. The family technically belongs to the larger family of languages known as the Uralic family, but the group is the most distinct of that family to the point that some argue that the Finno Ugric group is almost unique enough to be considered a family of its own. Just for reference, Finland is NOT Scandinavian, and the Scandinavian languages are part of the Indo-European and Germanic language families.

I personally have no experience with the Finnic runes I'm afraid.
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 22 Oct, 2009 12:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen Foster wrote:
Tim M. wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I believe I read or heard somewhere that the Finnish had their own alphabet of runes (not to be confused with the Finnish music/poem form)? The alphabet supposedly was very similar the Futhark alphabet.


I'll just copy some of what I sent to Myles in a PM to address this.

The sword was found in a women’s grave in Tavastland in current day central Finland. It is dated to sometime in the eleventh century.The history that I read on this area leads me to believe that the inhabitants may have been dominated by pagan Finns at least until 13th century when Sweden finally gained control of Tavastland in their second crusade. However, Finland also marked the Eastern edge of the Viking expansion according to some of the maps I’ve read with settlements showing up in ernest in the area in the 11th century. This woman could have also been from one of those Swedish Viking settlements. The end of the eleventh century is also the accepted time of the end of the so called Viking age and the beginning of the Medieval age.

Any one who has information regarding central Finland during the 11th century would be welcome to clarify us as to the probable nationality of this owner of this sword.

If she was a Swedish Viking, I believe the Younger Futhark short-twig runes would be more appropriate. However, I know absolutely nothing about Finnish Runes.

Drawing from the Albion Sword Site http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...lkyrja.htm


Did you ever decide on what to write? Laughing Out Loud
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 247

PostPosted: Thu 22 Oct, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure I can still do it without hurting the sword after what Ben Potter said. I read somewhere that back in those days bad men were referred to as a "wolves" so I was thinking something along the lines of "Wolf Slayer" might be an appropriate name.
"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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