[Michael Edelson]

[David Teague]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Membership retention and getting new members is always a problem when there is little money for advertising or promotion plus the fact that the activity is one where only a limited number of people know enough history to be seriously interested in learning.

I find that there is a constant roll over of membership but a few stay around for years but the average is about one or two seasons of training: Some satisfy their curiosity but are not sufficiently motivated to continue once they have at least " tasted " the activity.

Not very serious people who only show up a handful of time are not very motivational for the trainers to sacrifice a lot of time trying to teach.

Now, our group does offer a single " free " try out training session to give a chance for people to see if it's an activity they want to pursue.

If someone joins for a standard session of 15 weekly classes they have to pay the fee up front and if they are not motivated to show up they are wasting their money but not wasting our time ! But, it's wouldn't be very useful to have a full class of paid up students with nobody showing up ! The fees pay for rent of the training space mostly and other minor expenses but nobody is making a living just running the group. ( Note: I'm just a student and have zero involvement with running the school and I'm not in the loop about admin. issues ! Just giving the perspective of a student and some guesswork ).

Anyway, people seriously teaching or taking classes over more than a short period are doing it because they like it and want to learn. ( I agree that even people who show little aptitude but are trying hard and willing to learn are still seen as valued fellow students: Note new students or not very skilled one's are an interesting challenge that can surprise even the very skilled, so they are useful as training partners in any case ).

Well, this is sort of a side issue and probably very variable depending on how each group is organized, how much money there is for a training facility versus training in someone's back yard or a local church or community centre basement.

[JE Sarge]

No offense, but seriously, after my experiences with local WMA organizations, I literally do feel that they must qualify themselves to potential members. I have met some real characters in the last several years, some of which I would not feel comfortable letting into my home, much less trusting them enough to allow them to teach me anything. Ego has very little to do with it, it is more of a matter of proving to me that you have something that I need and want to dedicate my time in learning. Running an WMA organization is more like a career in sales than swordplay. As a customer, I want to see what you are offering is better and more suited to me than what others are offering. I don't think anyone shopping for something reliable would want anything less.

Once the deal is sealed, then I commit and give back to the organization, no problemo. When I am in, then I am in 110% and work as part of the organization. But until that point, I am a customer shopping, just as others are. If an organization is filled with drama and attitude - then that would be like a car that was leaking or ridden with other menchanical problems. I'd not buy it...

[David Teague]

Hello Jonathan,

No offense taken.

I could be wrong... but I think you'd find my classes worthy.

Cheers,

David

[J Anstey]

FWIW here's my point of view - please keep in mind that I am greatly interested in European arms and the associated martial arts, but my background is Japanese sword arts.

I run a dojo - I am a teacher and a student. I spend money out of my pocket to keep the doors open (hall hire and insurance)

I spend thousands of dollars traveling to seminars held domestically and Japan to learn, get points corrected and develop myself as a person and as a Martial artist and also so I can pass on what limited knowledge I have to my students.

My comments are based on my experiences only but I do think there are many similarities and philosophies between Eastern and Western arts.

A Martial art is a discipline not a democracy...

It's not music, it's not shopping for cars or consumer items. In days long past when 'study of the sword' was valuable as a profession it would be an honor to be accepted by an instructor as a student.

When I get a call from an interested potential student I always suggest they come down and have a look at a typical class and a chat. I keep this very informal. I ask the usual - why do you want to learn such an art? Have you had any experience in any type of Martial art etc etc. I am not looking for any big story, just a few words from the person to help me gauge whether there is the possibility of a match, or if this will be a waste of both of our time. I ask them what they would like to know about me, the school, the history, the linage so there is no misunderstandings.

I then suggest they come back next week and join in. I will then spend quite a bit of individual time with them, I also don't charge for the 1st lesson - 2 hours.

So my point here is simple - this is not rocket science - find places in areas you are prepared to travel to. Ask if you can come and watch a class and have a chat. Remember that almost all instructors make zero financial profit from teaching martial arts. Have a conversation with the Instructor if possible - Remember this is the Instructor not a car salesman. If you like what you see and hear then there should be a match. There may not be a match if the instructor sees an insincere person or someone who just wants to have everything their own way.

The training hall is a place where when we step into it , we step out of the real world. We train, we sweat, we listen and WE TRY to be better. There will be a chain of command and it is up to the student to prove themselves.

Anyway rant off

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[J Anstey]

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Jean Thibodeau]

J. : I don't think there is much disagreement in the last page of posts and people including you and me are just adding perspective by focusing on different but related aspects of the student/teacher or buyer/salesmen of a service.

Since most teacher today are not doing it for the money, and there is little money to be made, their motivation is to teach motivated people to advance the art and maybe also to have people to train with ! ( Hard to train at any advanced level if you have nobody to play with. ).

The " students " may be motivated by curiosity but have very variable degrees of dedication to put into it or may have erroneous ideas based on movies and T.V. ? Some are students of history and arms and have only theoretical knowledge but want the experience the feel of actually learning period swordsmanship.

The " commercial " model doesn't work if the potential student arrives with a demanding attitude that " money " ( Generally a pretty small amount of money ) will buy the services of a teacher if the student presents himself as a " Jerk " !

At the same time Western attitudes to learning/teaching don't include treating a teacher as a social superior or master. ( if one is going into a traditional Eastern Martial Art one may have to accept that following the traditions of the martial art is the only way one will be accepted as a student and an integral part of the experience ).

But, real respect from the student to the teacher and to the student from the teacher should still be very real but need not be of the cheerless over-serious and formal variety.

So I agree very much that it's not " here is cash/now teach me ", it's not McHEMA: " I'll take longsword with a side order of rapier and dagger ". ( Hope you understand that this last is meant as a joke. ).

[J Anstey]

[P. Cha]

[J Anstey]

[Allen Andrews]

I just want to say that I have attended a couple of seminars that featured Christian Henry Tobler. At no time did he ever malign another school. At the second event there was an instructor in Fiore (and my memory is so bad, I can't recall his name), not only did they not snipe at each other, they worked together.

I realize that mine is a very limited experience, but I saw a lot more of the behavior you describe in the Asian martial arts arena than in the WMA sect.

I am sure there is bad behavior out there, but Christian Henry Tobler is a gentleman (and a scholar), and a good ambassador for the western martial arts.

[David Teague]

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi David!

Nope - Allen's talking about Chivalric Weekend 2008. The other instructor was Greg Mele.

Cheers,

Christian

[Scott A. Brown]

Speaking to the original post of this thread…

Mr. Arnow, you are absolutely correct. You are not the only one to feel the way you do. Sadly.

I have been extremely fortunate in pursuing my passion for HEMA and have been able to travel the world to teach, train, and exchange with a LOT of practitioners. It is gravely disappointing to report that much of these attitudes you (rightly) criticize are far more prevalent and largely seem to emanate from North America. Oh sure, it certainly goes on elsewhere but the exaggerated presence of it here is not really up for debate based on my first hand observations.

Why so much here? I’ve heard multitudes of *reasons* from simple Internet miscommunication to attempts at cornering some financial market to over-inflated egos to decade old grudges stemming from arguments amongst men who were far more ignorant then than they are now, and many more. They all really come down to only two reasons, in my opinion: insecurity and immaturity.

Folks are bound to disagree and some conflict is healthy because it frequently propels new understanding but the severity and extremism of it here is downright embarrassing. Worst of all, it’s ridiculously counterproductive as your post painfully demonstrates.

None-the-less, belaboring why won’t change a thing and changing our online presence (at the very least) is dearly needed if these arts are going to endure and prosper.

If a man, such as yourself, who is clearly interested and shares interest in related fields is turned off then how many ‘passers-by’ are being alienated? How many other missed opportunities to bring another practitioner into HEMA are occurring on a daily basis? It’s staggering to contemplate. Clearly these missed opportunities are happening….and all because HEMA’s web presence comes across as largely infantile. Shameful on our part, bloody shameful.

In my opinion, the responsibility for affecting any change to these issues lies directly with HEMA’s leadership. End of story. When leaders modify their behaviour their supporters and followers tend to follow suit. Clearly, that needs to happen or we’re going to miss so many more Chad Arnow’s growing to enjoy HEMA.

Reading over this thread I was disappointed not to find much in the way of serious attempts at resolution from the HEMA contingent, instead I read of lot of denial of the problems and attempts to convince folks that ‘it’s really not like that’ despite the contrary opinions stated by yourself and others. Frustratingly, no-one jumped up to say “Yeah, you’re right and here’s what I’m gonna’ do about it!” or “This could really be hurting HEMA’s growth, let’s start working towards fixing this!” For that, I must apologize.

We are yet a young body of folk, we HEMA’teers, and we have much room for improvement. You’ve offered us an opportunity to look at one of our 800lb gorillas in the corner (and boy have we got a few gorillas in corners ) and that’s a kindness on your part. Your lesson will be taken to heart and follow through will occur.

Please know that there are HEMA practitioner’s out here who are very much aware of these issues, who are not in denial of them, and are committed and motivated towards rectifying them. Folks who very much desire a better online presence and are working towards this change (amongst others). And there WILL be change.

Pleasantly, it seems that you have been convinced to perhaps give HEMA another shot and that’s exciting to read. I have every confidence that you will find it a real hoot! IF that should work out, and I dearly hope that it does, then this could be a fantastic win-win situation for HEMA as well as yourself. You’d open a great new chapter in your life and HEMA would find a man with great influence to encourage other potential practitioners to get involved. I practically salivate at the possibilities!

Alternatively, if you aren’t fortunate enough to have a HEMA group in your area you might also consider starting a group of your own. You clearly have an aptitude for follow through and an even, analytical temperament which would surely go a long way to seeing good HEMA prosper in your region. It’s a lot of fun, not as hard as some might think, and let’s face it, it’s how most of us got started anyway. Plus, it gives you a great reason to start attending HEMA events, meet lots of fun people, and speculate on their various methods and interpretations.

I wish you Godspeed on your journey, may it be fruitful, long, and most of all fun!

Sincerely,

Scott A. Brown

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Scott,

I don't see anyone denying that there are online problems. Instead, several posters, myself included, urged Chad to experience the community in person, which reveals a far different world than some of the hostility associated with the WMA community's web presence.

Having just experienced yet another outstanding WMAW, featuring instructors from all over the world, I stand behind those words. The community is vibrant, progressing quickly, and most welcoming to newcomers. Anyone in doubt of this may ask Mr. Roland Warzecha about his first time experience as both attendee and instructor. In fact, it would be hard to find any attendee who would disagree with the sentiment that it was a 'love fest'.

I also don't believe we have any particular problems online that are much worse than any other martial art's; rather, it's quite the contrary. There are martial arts forums whose rudeness and disrespect are orders of magnitude worse than anything ever seen here or on SFI.

As to your commentary on North America, I can't agree - there are problem folks in this endeavor on both sides of the Atlantic. There are European forums that I simply don't visit due to the climate of disrespect present there; I can say the same of some American forums. You can find bad behavior on any continent, if you look for it. Converselly, there are other forums, this one included, that are bastions of civil discourse.

As with all things, your mileage may vary...

Cheers,

Christian

[David E. Farrell]

I have mainly been lurking, but figured I'd toss my .02 USD into the mix.

My group tends to follow the simple rule: "don't be a jerk". We all do this, and it isn't because it is policy... it's the way we are as people. I guess some groups aren't as lucky. I feel sorry for them, and dislike what they do to the image of HEMA as a whole (but I am sure there are folks who don't like what I do for it either :P ). But I can't make anyone change, and I doubt any amount of electronic ink will make the problem go away. What I can do is not be a jerk as best I can and hope others follow.

Unfortunately, my (and people like me) efforts will probably go largely un-noticed because there tends to be a confirmation bias in these sorts of things (we think it is the case, and recall the examples that back it up more easily than those that don't).

Chad (and anyone else looking), I hope you are able to find a group that agrees with you as well as mine agrees with me.