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Joe Fults
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 Posted: Sun 04 Oct, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | Not sure if you have notice but nobody is selling anything. It's free to the public. Whither or not you take it will have no affect upon ARMA offering it to the public.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
I normally steer clear of these threads because I know beans about WMA/HEMA. However, I do know a bit about sales and marketing and from a sales and marketing frame of reference, the article is clearly designed to generate interest in a product (information) that is going to be offered at some point in the future.
The article is not about sharing information today.
What has been published is is an advertisement, pure and simple. For that matter the creation of this thread seems to be an effort at creating brand awareness. Nothing wrong with any of that. Creating hype around a new product or idea is a time honored strategy but claiming that this is all something else appears disingenuous.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Benjamin Fredrick
Location: Richmond Joined: 02 Oct 2009
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun 04 Oct, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| James Head wrote: |
He was talking about the supposed errors in the original 'Rosetta Stone' article that started this whole thread. Maybe we should all take a breather on this one before everyone gets a little too punch drunk and can't see straight. |
DING, DING, DING and that's the end of round four.
Seriously though, parts of this thread have been very informative. My thanks to Steven Hand, Craig Peters & Tom Leoni for some very thoughtful and informative clarification of my questions related to "Der Vaage". I can see now that my assumptions were over simplifications of a complex issue. If all the posts of this thread were in a similar vein I doubt there would be near as many problems. Thanks to those who have tried to post in a similar spirit.
Ben
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sun 04 Oct, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | I normally steer clear of these threads because I know beans about WMA/HEMA. However, I do know a bit about sales and marketing and from a sales and marketing frame of reference, the article is clearly designed to generate interest in a product (information) that is going to be offered at some point in the future. |
Joe
ARMA is has two goals. The first goal is to recreate the martial arts of Europea that have been lost. The second goal is the educate the public about those lost arts. So yes, when ARMA takes a large step forward in recreating the lost arts it does want to generate interest in the public because that is part of the education process. What is not shared is still lost.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Ruel A. Macaraeg
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| Posted: Sun 04 Oct, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: | Randall,
Have you had a chance to speak with John and/or ARMA-Austin re: my offer to present your work at the Texas Medieval Assn. conference this month? As we discussed before, it'd at least give you an opportunity to present this "Rosetta tone" material in a truly academic and neutral venue. |
Ruel
I did pass your request to John but I don't have any idea if whither or not he or another member can make it, especially with such short notice. I know a lot of members, like myself, are trying to recover from the "back to school" thing with our kids. August and September blows our buggets really bad.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
If personal attendance isn't possible, you can send me a paper which I'll read to the panel (John Clements did this in 2004 when he let Ernie read for him at the University of Dallas). If this thread has demonstrated anything, there's a good deal of anticipation about this "Rosetta Stone" whose collective impatience seems unable to wait for John's upcoming article. With a paper at TEMA -- which I can publish in proceedings afterward -- some of this info can get out and whet the public appetite, or at least address some of the issues folks like Steven H have raised.
In fact, I invite anyone to submit such a paper to me, regardless of your position (for or against) on this material. I'm interested to keep the discussion going in a more neutral, scholarly venue, one which I can directly supervise as moderator.
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Steven H
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| Posted: Sun 04 Oct, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: |
| Quote: | Without answering that then the credibility is shot. And it should be. Just ignoring glaring errors calls into question everything else. If John Clements' article has two significant errors in it why should I believe that any other part of it is right.
Continuing to ignore the errors changes nothing. The article is flawed. His assertions are incorrect. He is getting all respect due to a such an article. |
You haven seen John Clements materials yet you already know they're flawed....oh wow. These post are getting too silly to keep responding to them. So I'll probably be ignoring you...unless I'm bored. 
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
As you full well know from reading this thread I'm not talking about errors in material yet to be presented. You have once again dodged the issue.
I'm talking about the errors raised by Steven Reich, David Leoni and Bill Grandy earlier in the thread and summarized below:
| Steven H wrote: |
But, that article contains clear, unambiguous, gross errors. Which has just been ignored.
"defending by Baroque-notions of parry and riposte is antithetical to the sources" False
"that nearly every strike and defense should wind from a bind while hanging" False |
And just to clarify: the quotes above direct quotes from the Rosetta Stone article under discussion here. They are not wild suppositions about what John will say in later articles. These are errors he has already printed and publicized.
I have no doubt that you understood these to be the errors in question but you continue to dodge. You cannot even pretend to be debating in good conscience. You simply feign not to see the charges you cannot answer and then invent other explanations for what has been said.
Later, you will know doubt bemoan how John's critics attacked his work before it was ever presented. All the while blithely ignoring the real criticism - the actual errors.
-Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sun 04 Oct, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Steve
If you actually read all of the post you will see that I have already said to Steven that I have not studied any of the rapier masters, thus I am totally unqualified to speak on them, plus I cannot speak for John Clements. What do you not understand? 
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Mon 05 Oct, 2009 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | Steve
If you actually read all of the post you will see that I have already said to Steven that I have not studied any of the rapier masters, thus I am totally unqualified to speak on them, plus I cannot speak for John Clements. What do you not understand? |
I'm not Steve, but what I'm not understanding is why you're arguing at all over the forums. You're essentially saying that you're not qualified to adress the errors, that you can't develop nor explain any of the vague claims being made in the article since you're not John, and yet you're saying people should wait before commenting? What information exactly are you bringing to the discussion?
How about what's been raised on another forum:
| Quote: | | Meyer says, "Do not rely too much on the Crown: you will tend to get scorn and shame from it." (Tranlstion from Freifechter.com) |
How do you reconcile that with John's apparent emphasis on fighting from the Crown?
Note that I'm totally unqualified in German longsword, just giving you a chance of adding something of substance here
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Hubertus Bruijnen
Location: Netherlands Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: | [
A few of us were just discussing the changes in stance at the WMAW over the 200 plus years of the German system. Nobody in the group I was chatting with thought Meyer/Sutor's stance was artistic licence. The general conclusion was the upright small frame stance of the early work goes hand in hand with the wearing of a full harness.
The full harness was no longer the battlefield standard by Meyer and Sutor's time so it allowed the use of the deeper stance and larger steps. Also, the longsword had become the "fencing foil" to teach the basics of German swordplay (ok, the art of fighting if you wish) .
The deep stance of Meyer/Sutor's longsword is what becomes the base for learning the stance for the real killing weapon of the era, the sidesword aka the " Meyer 's rappier".
But... you must know all this as I'm pretty sure we both have the same set of historic fight books on our shelves.
You wall yourself in, make grandiose statements unsupported by any facts and yet when we point out some of steady improvements in our craft , you cry out " In any case the cheese has been move, now everyone will run to it and say, "It's mine!"  |
My apologies for dropping into this discussion without properly introducing myself.
I have read the article on the ARMA website and I have read the replies here in this forum.
Footwork from the stance: "Vaage" or, "Waage".
The word "Waage" refers to "Scales", or, for that matter a weighing scale. If I look at it, it seems more to refer to "balance" then to anything else.
Now, I am making an assumption here, but I feel it is a safe assumption, could the keyword be: "balanced", and not "deep" or "high"?
I understand that people have different interpretations and I laud everyone who makes a serious effort in reviving the European Medieval/Renaissance Martial Arts.
So, the above with all due respect to all people involved into this discussion.
Bert Bruijnen
False face must hide what the false heart doth know.
(Macbeth)
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Jeffrey Hull
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| Posted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: Kron |
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Hello
I should like to amplify & support some things stated by Reich, Leoni and Tobler: Use of the Kron in German Bloszfechten (unarmoured longsword fencing) is actually the same as parry-riposte. You drive up into Kron to intercept (if not plainly block) an Oberhau with blade & cross, and from there you must quickly either Schnitt; or drive into Ochs to do Winden into Stich; or even close to do some kind of Ringen. That is because Kron is not hewing which displaces, nor does is make automatic threat with the point of your weapon. Moreover, it done in and activates from Nach. Thus Kron is not simultaneous Versetzen & Hauen which itself gets aside foe’s weapon and strikes foe, or leads straight into Stichen to strike him – like unto Vier Versetzen or Meisterhauen. Kron is a basically a Hut-Versetzen which allows Hauen immediately thereafter – but not both at once. That is the simple truth of Kron for Bloszfechten. Kron is very useful defence which however must change forthwith into some offence. Kron does not do both for you. Thus its proper use and its very nature are an example of some German swordsmanship equivalent of parry-riposte. It is vulnerable to countering by way of Scheitelhau, which of course it means to counter. So Kron is really not a “key element” to “rediscovering” fencing; and being in fact a parry-riposte it is not “antithetical to the source teachings”. It is a useful move like many other – nothing more & nothing less. For description of the Kron, refer to Goliath (1510-20) which states the following, as per Rasmusson’s helpful & available online transcription 
http://www.schielhau.org/goliath.p61-80.html
(37v) Der Scheitler dem antzlig ist geuer mit seiner / ker der prust vast gefer Was von im kumpt / die Kron das ab nimpt, schneidt durch die Kron / so prichstu sy hart schon Die striche druck / mit schniten sy abzuck
(38r) Der scheitler pricht die hut die do heist alber und ist dar zu dem antz / lig unnd der prust geferlich mit seiner ker, Den treib also wenn / du mit dem zufechten zu im kumpst, legt er sich dan gegn dir in die hut / Alber so setz den lincken vues vor unnd halt dein schwert an deiner / rechtenn achsell yn der hut und spring zu im unnd hau mit der langn / schneid von obn nider starck, im zu dem kopf versetzt er den hau das sein / ort und das ein gehultz paide uber sich steenn das selb heist die Kron, so / pleib hoch mit den armenn unnd heb mit der linckn hant deinen schwertz / knopf uber sich unnd senck im den ort uber sein gehultz zu der prust / vert er denn auf mit dem schwert unnd stost dir den ort mit dem / gehultz uber sich, so wind dein schwert under seiner kronn durch mit / dem schnit in sein arm und druck also ist die kron wider geprochn, und / mit dem druckn so schneid vast in die arm und zeuch dich mit dem schnit / ab
Regards
JH
Knightly Dueling - the Fighting Arts of German Chivalry
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Kron |
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| Jeffrey Hull wrote: | | So Kron is really not a “key element” to “rediscovering” fencing... |
I thank you for this great enlightenment. I will share it the rest of ARMA. I'm sure when John Clements receives this enlightening news he will totally drop all of the recent advancements he has made.  
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Kron |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Jeffrey Hull wrote: | | So Kron is really not a “key element” to “rediscovering” fencing... |
I thank you for this great enlightenment. I will share it the rest of ARMA. I'm sure when John Clements receives this enlightening news he will totally drop all of the recent advancements he has made. |
Very constructive comment Randall, I suppose we'll have to wait a bit more before seeing anything that backs this portion of the Rosetta stone article then.
Speaking of which, are we next week yet?
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Kron |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Very constructive comment Randall |
Well it was at least as constructive as Jeffery attempting to disprove something he has never seem.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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William Carew
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| Posted: Sat 17 Oct, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Very constructive comment Randall |
Well it was at least as constructive as Jeffery attempting to disprove something he has never seem.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
Randall,
No-one outside of ARMA has seen it, and that's largely the problem. Extremely bold claims have been made and in the absence of the supporting detail to back up the initial claims, people have resorted to speculation based on scant detail in the the original article.
So the real question to you and ARMA is this: will those of us outside ARMA ever actually see the detail of this 'Rosetta Stone' paradigm shift or not?
Yes = it would be best for us all to refrain from further hyperbole or condemnation both until the detail is released.
No = what's the point of further discussion? We can all move on and get back to more productive things like training hard.
Bill
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Christopher Lee
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 4:05 am Post subject: Re: Kron |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Jeffrey Hull wrote: | | So Kron is really not a “key element” to “rediscovering” fencing... |
I thank you for this great enlightenment. I will share it the rest of ARMA. I'm sure when John Clements receives this enlightening news he will totally drop all of the recent advancements he has made. Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
Sarcasm is indeed a very poor substitute for content or intelligent discussion.
Surely this "great enlightenment" as you term is as worthy of attention as the "great enlightenment" that was offered to the rest of the WMA community through the article profered by the bodhisattvas of ARMA? And yes, maybe Mr Clements may return to the books and discover that he has in fact made no discovery at all.
it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
I'll leave you all with that shakespearean thought of the day.
Christopher
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Kron |
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Christopher
Did my reply to Jeffery contain anymore sarcasm then his attempt to disprove something he has never seen? Some of the people Jeffery currently studies with may have seen a very small part of it but Jeffery himself has seen zero of it.
Did my reply to Jeffery contain anymore sarcasm then you calling John Clements an idiot. By the way, have you ever even met the John Clements?
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Kron |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Did my reply to Jeffery contain anymore sarcasm then his attempt to disprove something he has never seen? Some of the people Jeffery currently studies with may have seen a very small part of it but Jeffery himself has seen zero of it. |
Jeffrey is doing what several others have been doing, i.e. disputing quotes that are already published. Perhaps these quotes are misunderstood but you carefully avoid this discussion...
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Adam Bodorics
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Ok, so after so much lurking, hiding, researching, not-discussing-anything-with-anyone, training and sparring, I alone understood that everything everyone did in the past few decades was bullshit, and I alone hold the key of enlightment. Don't ask about it, if you want to see it, come and join my organizations. Anyone who tries to defy me using logic or quotes is an idiot, and I'll snip parts of his comments to make everyone understand that the given person IS an idiot.
How does this sound? Does it make anyone interested in anything else than disemboweling me? I don't really think so. I think this makes ME look like an idiot.
...
One more thing. These arts are for killing. Until you start using them that way, you only STUDY them, not actually DOING, and as long as you STUDY, you are a STUDENT, not a master or a pro. Sorry guys. Nothing wrong with being students I think.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam Bodorics wrote: | Ok, so after so much lurking, hiding, researching, not-discussing-anything-with-anyone, training and sparring, I alone understood that everything everyone did in the past few decades was bullshit, and I alone hold the key of enlightment. Don't ask about it, if you want to see it, come and join my organizations. Anyone who tries to defy me using logic or quotes is an idiot, and I'll snip parts of his comments to make everyone understand that the given person IS an idiot.
How does this sound? Does it make anyone interested in anything else than disemboweling me? I don't really think so. I think this makes ME look like an idiot.
...
One more thing. These arts are for killing. Until you start using them that way, you only STUDY them, not actually DOING, and as long as you STUDY, you are a STUDENT, not a master or a pro. Sorry guys. Nothing wrong with being students I think. |
Maybe a little sarcastic ( Hopefully not over the line of being acceptable within the rules of this site ) but basically an accurate caricature/simile of what is raising the hackles of many people.
The only way to really convince anyone is to actually show or talk about the data, until then it's just an announcement without support: Even if it is the Holly Grail of discoveries it doesn't mean much until published " openly ", if it's a " secret " and remains a " secret ", it become hard to convince people to convert to the new " religion " !
Anyway, it's counter productive as it produces mostly negative spin and predisposes people to attack rather than having an open mind about it i.e. bad and negative P.R. and not a good way to sell an idea I think.
A good debate only happens if people reply to comments with rebuttals to ideas and not by selectively avoiding what they don't want to discuss or distort was actually said: I don't mean this only for this Topic, I mean for any Topic people should really " debate " not talk AT each other ignoring what was actually written or read insults between the lines that are only in their minds .......
Good skills at debating is very close to the skills in swordsmanship but in swordsmanship ignoring a good attack doesn't work as well as trying to ignore an uncomfortable debating point: It is like an attack not parried and insisting on having won while dying on the ground ( if the fight was real ).
A little link to debating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christopher Lee
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Kron |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | Christopher
Did my reply to Jeffery contain anymore sarcasm then his attempt to disprove something he has never seen? Some of the people Jeffery currently studies with may have seen a very small part of it but Jeffery himself has seen zero of it.
Did my reply to Jeffery contain anymore sarcasm then you calling John Clements an idiot. By the way, have you ever even met the John Clements? Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
Actually Randall, unpleasant, content free replies, saying that posts are silly and that you are bored have come across as an attempt to carry on a rearguard action in a fight that you appear to be conceding as lost; yes, lost. If you were able to come back with real information and content and adress the concerns raised by posters here then the discussion would not have degenerated into a sand pit squabble. The manner in which this discussion has been carried out has been a disservice to both ARMA and Mr Clemments.
Also, i have to ask, is there but one member of ARMA, being yourself? I thought that ARMA had a large membership? If so, why is there no other voice from that group in the discussion? Why is there but one voice defending Mr Clemments and his new material? Indeed i'm sure that many people would welcome Mr Clemments into the discussion. Have you extended the invitation at all?
What i have trouble with understanding is, why on earth was the article and OP posted in the first place? Was it just to stir everyone up, a mammoth act of baiting, or was it to introduce some new information or revelation? Did the issue only arise when people said that no, its actually not that new, not a revelation, and that people have been doing it/known about it for a fair while?
But Randall, please do not misconstrue my signature block and inclusion of a quote from Hamlet, i wasn't in any way referring to Mr Clements.
After all, may i not have been referring to my own post?
Christopher
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
G. B. Shaw
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
"If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating
coxcomb, is it meet, think you, that we should also,
look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating
coxcomb?"
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R Smith
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| Posted: Mon 19 Oct, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: |
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 This is sadly how all these "discussions" go whenever ARMA is involved. This may as well have been a discussion about religon or politics for all the minds that have been changed. Minds are unchanged but hearts have been hardened and the rift between ARMA and the rest of the WMA community has widened.
I can not imagine that any other outcome was expected by the original poster because this is the way it always goes. So mission accomplished. Bravo!
"Those with wisdom loathe the one forced to defend." - Liechtenauer
Ars Gladii
Detroit, MI
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