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Steven H




Location: Boston
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
Just for clarification, the krumphau as practiced in ARMA is not an unterhau. The comment was made (not by Ran) that our krumphau is or looks like an unterhau. That is not our interpretation of what we are doing or of the krumphau.

Greg Coffman
ARMA DFW/Abilene


As we, outside of ARMA, have been shown it, the krumpers blade moves upwards to a position under the opponents blade. How you distinguish that from other kinds of unterhau is a semantic argument which is in no way relevant to the discussion.

The ARMA krump as depicted in these videos directly contratdicts both the text and pictures from the sources. To reiterate what Christian said, that's simply not open to interpretation.

Cheers,
Steven

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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Hello all,

Any interpretation of the Krumphau, in it's definition prior to the 16th century at least, as an Unterhau is simply a non-starter.

First, the Nuremberg Hausbuch (Hs. 3227a) directly says it's an Oberhau:

Hie merke vnd wisse das der krumphaw / ist eyn oberhaw der do mit eyme guten ausschrete [...]

"Here note and know that the Crooked Stroke is a stroke from above performed with a good outward step."

That's simply not open to interpretation.

The glosses of the 15th century all speak of striking the Krumphau so that the point goes *over* your opponent's hands. That too makes the technique an Oberhau.


And Greg Mele thought I was speaking "ex cathedra"! Eek! Laughing Out Loud


Christian

I actually had the same thoughts when I first heard of John's new intrepretation and many of us took him to task over it. As another ARMA member has already pointed out, John's new Krump interpretation is actually performed as an Oberhau, it matches all of the texts that describe it, it really does break Ochs, and it ties in beautifully with the other master cuts. But if you want a really good description you'll have to contact John. As scholars should our minds not be opened to new possibilities? If not, then how are we to move forward with recreating these lost art?


Steven H wrote:
..that's simply not open to interpretation..

All of the masters are dead. Therefore, everything is always open for interpretation.

Ran Pleasant
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

Randall Pleasant wrote:

And Greg Mele thought I was speaking "ex cathedra"! Eek! Laughing Out Loud


It's not me speaking ex cathedra - I'm simply quoting the manuscripts.

Quote:
I actually had the same thoughts when I first heard of John's new intrepretation and many of us took him to task over it. As another ARMA member has already pointed out, John's new Krump interpretation is actually performed as an Oberhau, it matches all of the texts that describe it, it really does break Ochs, and it ties in beautifully with the other master cuts. But if you want a really good description you'll have to contact John. As scholars should our minds not be opened to new possibilities? If not, then how are we to move forward with recreating these lost art?


If I need to consult John on this, doesn't that mean that you don't understand it? And if that's so, isn't it unreasonable for you to be arguing a point you don't fully understand? If only John can explain it to me, how can you know it fits the text? Further, how can you know the efficacy, or lack thereof, of others' interpretation, having attended a grand total of one non-ARMA event?

You keep insisting that all this is revolutionary and faithful to the texts. Yet you can't explain how it works, and can only refer us to someone who doesn't communicate outside his own forum. That's not just bad scholarship, it's poor salesmanship.

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:

You keep insisting that all this is revolutionary and faithful to the texts. Yet you can't explain how it works, and can only refer us to someone who doesn't communicate outside his own forum. That's not just bad scholarship, it's poor salesmanship.


It is also what's known as being an "apologist".

John's Krumphau may do everything that you state, Randal, but we'll never know by that video, because what is shown is an *Unterhau*. It doesn't matter if the blade starts high; if it cuts down and under, so that it is rising as it comes to the target, that is as cut from below. That's not interpretation, unless we want to debate the etymology of words like "above" and "below".

This is precisely the same point I made about your claims on bicorno - which you opted not to answer. The idea of moving guard to guard in Italian fencing was a community wide idea in 2000, the idea of cutting into bicorno and thrusting out of it is a decade old. The framing of the guard John shows is one of several that were being used as early as 2001; many Fioreists use the interpretation that Guy Windsor first presented in 2007. For the interpretation to be valid, it must not only match the illustrations in all four manuscripts, it must do precisely what they advise. There was no widely available translation of Fiore's work until last year, and John Clements does not read Italian or German, so I have no idea how much data on that position he even has, nor from which sources. But again, while he may understand it perfectly, watching a solo cutting drill doesn't address any of those tactical applications. It just shows a cut into a guard.

Randal, ARMA's Rosetta Stone/Grand Unified Theory of European Swordsmanship isn't the issue we are raising - we can't as nothing has actually been made available, nor do you, as the chief forum apologist, seem able to give concrete answers. The issue is your insistence on going forum to forum and making sweeping assertions such as "no one has ever before", "unlike other scholars", "a unique...", when you frankly have no real idea what goes on outside of ARMA.As Christian and I both noted, you have gone to exactly *one* large, non-ARMA gathering. Likewise, for all of John's marketing hyperbole such as running the first and only "free standing HEMA school in North America" (it was neither first, nor only), and leading the only "organization of its kind headed by a professional instructor" (also not true, and people such as Guy Windsor were professionally teaching and leading multi-group organizations years before John was), John ceased to interact with most of the non-ARMA US community in 2001, and cut his ties with much of the larger, international community after the first ARMA international gathering in NY a year or two later.

I really don't know why it so impossible to simply say "we have a new interpretation of the Krumphau that we feel better fits the sources" and then to *back it up with evidence* then to constantly have to dismiss, denigrate or project onto the entire rest of the WMA community. If you want to make sweeping claims, then you are going to be questioned on them, just as, if I posted here that Oakshott's typology was garbled and needed complete revising, I'd better well be ready to prove it..

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
I really don't know why it so impossible to simply say "we have a new interpretation of the Krumphau that we feel better fits the sources" and then to *back it up with evidence* then to constantly have to dismiss, denigrate or project onto the entire rest of the WMA community.


Quoted for emphasis.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Greg Mele wrote:
I really don't know why it so impossible to simply say "we have a new interpretation of the Krumphau that we feel better fits the sources" and then to *back it up with evidence* then to constantly have to dismiss, denigrate or project onto the entire rest of the WMA community.


Quoted for emphasis.

Bill

If you go back and read my reply to Robert S. Haile on March 6th you'll see that I was simply answering his question of how what John was doing in the video was different from what Christian shows in his book. Answering that question does not bind me in anyway to any demand of full explain John's Krump interpretation. As has been pointed out many times in this thread, if you want to make that demand then go to the source. John Clements email can be found on the ARMA site.

Ran Pleasant
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, Randall, in that post you said this:

Quote:
On the other hand, in JC's interpretation the Krumphau ties in completely with the other master cuts allowing one to use only the master cuts to make all 16 possible cuts one can make with a double edge sword. In the video you may also notice JC cutting into and out of Fiore's Bicorno guard while performing the master cuts. That clearly is not in Tobler's book! To the best of my knowledge none of the top Fiore instructors move into and out of Bicorno like JC does. In short, JC's new interpretations are indeed revolutionary.


So, again, if it is "nothing like what others are doing" and "indeed revolutionary", and as *you* are the one who said that, it is quite fair for everyone else to ask you "how so"? If you don't want to be held accountable for backing those claims up, then just don't make them. That's all William Carew, Christian, Bill G or I have been saying.

Greg Mele
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
..."how so"?

Greg

Revolutionary can be used to say that something is radically new or innovative. Regardless of what you think of John's Krump interpretation you have to agree that the interpretation is totally different from Christian's interpretation or that of anyone else, it is not somewhat like it or a variation of, etc., it is innovative and radically different. Also know that what John refers to a "radical new reinterpretation" includes far far more than just the Krump.


I'm an "apologist"? Only somewhat when eating dinner with some of my Protestant friends. Wink Laughing Out Loud

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know, I can write a "radical, innovative" paper on why I believe Aristotle's physics is actually discussing the theory of rock and roll. I bet it'd be an entertaining read, too. Happy Just because no one's done it before, doesn't actually mean it fits the sources (a fact that you've repeatedly dodged, Randall). Unless if you're saying that this bicorno interpretation is so revolutionary that Fiore himself didn't even use it... in which case, we're in total agreement, based on the texts. Happy

As for this idea that everyone in Europe was actually doing the same art, and that John is teaching this, that sounds all nice and good until you actually *read* the sources. Show me one single example of a zwerchhau in Dall'Agocchie (or any of the Bolognese masters, for that matter). Just one. Show me a single example of a krumphau in Fabris (or any of his contemporaries in Italy). Just one. Show me a geferhau in Fiore or in Vadi. These actions don't exist in those systems because they don't really make sense in those systems. Now, don't get me wrong, cross training is a smart idea, and will definitely give you new insights into a particular art. But claiming that all of these arts are the same is like me claiming that learning to drive an automobile is the same thing as learning to use a submarine... there are a lot of very similar concepts, and a lot of overlap, but you can't assume that one automatically translates to the another, and you can't expect other people to take you seriously if you insist so vehemently in making such comments.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow this is a tiring and frustrating Topic at this point: If someone is going to announce something " revolutionary " i.e. a better interpretation but then won't explain what it is, them what is the point of even bringing it up. WTF?!

O.K. first Randall since you won't tell us anything useful about it because you say that we have to ask John to tell us I assume you mean you don't have permission to discuss it but you do understand it, have seen it done, might even be able to do it yourself ? If you don't yourself understand it, know it, can do it on what basis other than " faith " can you say that it's a revolutionary better interpretation ?

I can only conclude that the only reason for this Topic was to serve as a teaser and that the only way to find out what the technique is, is to join ARMA Exclamation

If this was supposed to be good P.R. it's not working ! Sorry, if I'm being a bit brutal here.

( NOTE: Going back to the beginning I do notice that the Topic wasn't started by Randall, just to be fair ).

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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,


There's an expression "playing dumb not to go to war." That is what you're doing here.

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Greg Mele wrote:
..."how so"?


Revolutionary can be used to say that something is radically new or innovative.


The definition of "revolutionary" you are referring to is:

radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles, etc.: a revolutionary discovery.

Which you have related specifically to the term *innovative*. Innovative is defined as:

tending to innovate or characterized by innovation. Advanced, forward-looking, ground-breaking

You know full well that you are chose and use your terminology to imply that what John has come up with an improvement over out-dated ideas or mistaken interpretations.

Randall, this is nothing new - you have been doing this for *years*. Everything you post about ARMA interpretations is at the implicit or explicit expense of others - it's bot disingenuous and cultish behavior. What makes it particularly cultish is that you make these sorts of assertions but then provide no data, answer no detailed questions and refer people back to your leader, who has made himself into the Old Man of the Mountain. He does not take emails from outsiders, and he only posts on his own forum, where disagreement and questioning is shouted down and shut-down with edited posts, deleted posts and banning. More to the point, John is not subtle about it. Even has early as when it was "HACA" and he was questioned on the forum's policies versus his oft-used quote from Homer that it is a place "for all free Greeks", John said *publicly*on multiple occasions that "doesn't mean it's a place for Trojans".

So what we are left with is an infomercial and a video-clip that might show something somehow related to these ideas and is somehow revealed in the ARMA "16 cut drill" (a drill, I might add, whose concept was developed and taught by Meyer 400+ years ago). But as a number of us said earlier, we have no way to judge any of that, because you won't answer questions, explain how the video can directly contradict surviving sources and still be what you claim it to be, or acknowledge that your assertions about others is based on virtually no knowledge of what transpires outside of ARMA. That isn't a discussion, it's not scholarly and it's not genuine - it's manipulative and it is not the way most people on this forum interact with one another.

Greg Mele
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Unless if you're saying that this bicorno interpretation is so revolutionary that Fiore himself didn't even use it... in which case, we're in total agreement, based on the texts.

Bill

Please read my original post. I never said there was anything revolutionary in how John Clements was holding Bicorno in the video and please note that John does not even say "Bicorno" in the video. Robert Haile said he could see most of what John was doing in Christian Tobler's book on German longsword. I pointed out to Robert that John Clements was moving into Bicorno as he was doing the German master cuts and was performing his interpretation of the Krump, neither of which are in Christian's book. The rest of the discussion is little more than the usual knee-jerking reaction that Christian and Greg often have upon hearing John's name.

Quote:
As for this idea that everyone in Europe was actually doing the same art, and that John is teaching this, that sounds all nice and good until you actually *read* the sources.

Bill, I must call you on this, especially since you are a moderator! To suggest that ARMA members either cannot *read* or do not *read* the works of the masters is clearly, and without any doubt, Ad Hominem. I assure you beyond all doubt that all ARMA members can read and that we read, re-read, and re-read, etc., the works of the masters. Please remember that all of us are dealing with interpretations. Even if a person reads a historical works in the native language they are still only dealing with their interpretation of it.

Quote:
Show me a single example of a krumphau in Fabris...

WTF?!
I have never ever once suggest in any possible manner that you could find the Krumphau in the works of Fabris or the works of any of the other rapier master.


Quote:
...you can't assume that one automatically translates to the another...

Nor should one assume that they don't... We must always ask ourselves is the difference we see between masters an actual difference between the masters or is it just a difference between interpretations. Of course, as ARMA has long state, we can only expect that there will be some variation between regions and between masters.


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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

You can't demonize Christian and I on this one. That is a strawman argument. No, we do not get along with you, but largely for the reasons I just articulated, as well as what you are doing here - when pressed into a corner you cry foul. More importantly, William Carew and Bill Grandy have pushed back on you just as hard. Certainly, Jean Thibodeau is one of the most active, mildest and most courteous posters on myArmoury, and you have managed to exasperate him, a well.

How about if you ignore anything I wrote just actually answer the questions that Bill, William and Jean made? I think that would satisfy everyone.

Greg Mele
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Alex Spreier




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Bill Grandy wrote:
Unless if you're saying that this bicorno interpretation is so revolutionary that Fiore himself didn't even use it... in which case, we're in total agreement, based on the texts.

Bill

Please read my original post. I never said there was anything revolutionary in how John Clements was holding Bicorno in the video and please note that John does not even say "Bicorno" in the video.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Actually, at 1:21 in the video he clearly says "bicorno" while showing his interpretation of that guard position. Quite clearly actually (other than poor Italian pronunciation).

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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 11:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Wow this is a tiring and frustrating Topic at this point

I agree, it has been since the beginning of the thread.

Quote:
...I assume you mean you don't have permission to discuss it...

Correct, at the end of the article John Clements clearly says that his interpretations are the subject of a forthcoming book. It is simply not my work.

Quote:
...the only way to find out what the technique is, is to join ARMA

Not so, as already noted it is to be the subject of a book.

Quote:
If this was supposed to be good P.R. it's not working ! Sorry, if I'm being a bit brutal here.

John posted the article on the ARMA site for educational purposes for those who are interested. If P.R. was a major concern I'm sure that ARMA would look very different than it does today.

Quote:
Going back to the beginning I do notice that the Topic wasn't started by Randall, just to be fair.

Thanks!


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Steven H




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Steven H wrote:
..that's simply not open to interpretation..

All of the masters are dead. Therefore, everything is always open for interpretation.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Wow. Eek!
Words like 'above' and 'under' are open to interpretation even when the pictures match the dictionary definition? That degree of "interpretation" is just staggering.

And if the sources are really so ambiguous that we cannot be sure of basic words like 'up' and 'down' then why do you bother consulting the sources?

What exactly do you propose might be the correct interpretation of the word "above" that also matches numerous illustrations?

The problem here is that krump is well described. Numerous sources describe it in consistent terminology. These decriptions match the images. And the standard interpretation easily allows for all of the described follow-on techniques to be used as described and pictured. It is not one line of evidence. It is multiple sources with multiple lines of evidence that all support the same conclusion.

When we have multiple types of evidence from mutliple sources we can be much more confident. There is much less 'interpretation' to be done. That's the way science works.

Any counter-interpretation must successfully address ALL of these lines of evidence. Not just one. So JC's interpretation breaks Ochs. But it doesn't do any of the other things (like be above/over the opponents sword, match the pictures or allow for the follow-on techniques).

And I can't ask on the ARMA forum. My application for an account was rejected without explanation.

-Steven

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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Mele wrote:
...cultish behavior.

I was wondering when this would appear. Razz

Quote:
... refer people back to your leader

We are referring to you by name, please show the same respect to others.

Quote:
He does not take emails from outsiders, and he only posts on his own forum, where disagreement and questioning is shouted down and shut-down with edited posts, deleted posts and banning. More to the point, John is not subtle about it. Even has early as when it was "HACA" and he was questioned on the forum's policies versus his oft-used quote from Homer that it is a place "for all free Greeks", John said *publicly*on multiple occasions that "doesn't mean it's a place for Trojans".

This is totally off topic. In light of you being the main moderator on that other forum that is anything but ARMA friendly I can only say - "WTF?!"

Quote:
...the ARMA "16 cut drill" (a drill, I might add, whose concept was developed and taught by Meyer 400+ years ago)

Meyer and the other masters are indeed an inspiration to us.


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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex Spreier wrote:
Actually, at 1:21 in the video he clearly says "bicorno" while showing his interpretation of that guard position. Quite clearly actually (other than poor Italian pronunciation).

Alex

Thanks, I totally missed it (poor hearing).


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Steven H




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:

Quote:
...the only way to find out what the technique is, is to join ARMA

Not so, as already noted it is to be the subject of a book.

So instead of paying ARMA we have to pay John Clements (unless it's actually being published by the non-profit). Same difference.

Randall Pleasant wrote:

Quote:
If this was supposed to be good P.R. it's not working ! Sorry, if I'm being a bit brutal here.

John posted the article on the ARMA site for educational purposes for those who are interested. If P.R. was a major concern I'm sure that ARMA would look very different than it does today.

If it were intended to be educational then it would've contained information. It, however, looked just like ad copy. Nothing more. Glittering generalities devoid of detail or evidence. Sweeping claims. Strawman attacks. Just no actual information.

And the P.R. of ARMA is perfect for a cult.

-Steven

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Quote:
As for this idea that everyone in Europe was actually doing the same art, and that John is teaching this, that sounds all nice and good until you actually *read* the sources.

Bill, I must call you on this, especially since you are a moderator! To suggest that ARMA members either cannot *read* or do not *read* the works of the masters is clearly, and without any doubt, Ad Hominem.


#1: I am not calling ARMA out on anything. I'm calling *you* out on *your* attacks on others. I'm calling out *you* on *your* claims, here and on other threads. As a matter of fact, I have stated many times on this thread and others that I'm not trying to bash ARMA. In almost all of these threads its *you*, Randall Pleasant, waving the banner of ARMA, saying that everyone else is wrong, and that ARMA is the only group that has it all right. And when anyone asks you to back up your claims, your answer is, "I'm not at liberty to say, you'll have to talk to John Clements." John isn't here. He doesn't participate here, nor does he particpate with the outside community.

So when you come here and kick up dirt to say, "You're all so blind," and we turn to you and ask why your statements contradict the historical sources, and cite specific material in the sources, and show you actual textual evidence, and your only reply is to be smug and act like, "Oh, trust us, you're all wrong," I'm going to make the assumption that *you* haven't read these sources that you're making such grandoise claims about. That's not an ad homininem attack on ARMA, that's calling *you* out on *your* repeated behaviour on this forum. You want to prove me wrong? Try answering one of the countless questions being proposed to *YOU* regarding all of the factual errors and inconsistencies dealing with the various historical treatises. I would love for *you* to prove me wrong about this.

If you can't, then just be honest. Don't get coy; don't get dismissive. Say, "Hey, I can't address that because I don't know the answer, but I think John's on to something," and stop saying, "Haha, you all are so ignorant and can't understand what we in ARMA clearly can."

And *don't* try to act like I'm being a big, bad bully.

Quote:
I assure you beyond all doubt that all ARMA members can read and that we read, re-read, and re-read, etc., the works of the masters.


#2: I know full well that people in ARMA can read. I know this because I've met people in ARMA who've been wonderful, friendly and dedicated martial artists who are willing to discuss things and trade knowledge. I've met many in person, and I've had many e-mail exchanges with some very scholarly and gentlemanly ARMA members.

I've also had a number of ARMA people e-mail me ever since this thread started to tell me that not everyone in ARMA thinks these interpretations are as revolutionary as you keep spouting. I've even received e-mails that doubt the interpretations altogether, but these members enjoy their time in ARMA, and therefore don't want to make a big stink about it. Rest assured, Randall, I have no problems with all of ARMA. I have problems with the underhanded way you're presenting this. Granted, I also have problems with the way John presented his material in the article that started all of this (and I've addressed that WAY back on the first page), but since you're the one making all of the claims on this forum, you're the one I'm addressing. Don't try to say that becasue I disagree with you that I somehow am bashing ARMA, because that isn't remotely true.

Quote:
Please remember that all of us are dealing with interpretations. Even if a person reads a historical works in the native language they are still only dealing with their interpretation of it.


#3: I don't think anyone has any problems remembering that. What we have a problem with is when an interpretation contradicts the direct sources, but is spouted as "revolutionary", and that "no one else has ever come up with this before", and that you won't address even one single question regarding those sources. Not one. An interpretation that directly contradicts the sources isn't likely to be an interpretation that's going to be accepted by anyone.

Quote:
...you can't assume that one automatically translates to the another...

Nor should one assume that they don't... We must always ask ourselves is the difference we see between masters an actual difference between the masters or is it just a difference between interpretations. Of course, as ARMA has long state, we can only expect that there will be some variation between regions and between masters.[/quote]

No argument there. But don't try to say that these things that directly contradict the sources are true because you say they are.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."


Last edited by Bill Grandy on Tue 09 Mar, 2010 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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