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Dana P
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 Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: Hoping to identify 6 bladed weapons from an old collection |
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Hello everybody, this is my first post to this forum.
Our family has owned an antique weapons collection for several generations, most of which was collected by our great-grandfather in the early 1900's. I'm hoping that somebody here will be able to help us identify some of these bladed weapons. They've been in storage for many years and unfortunately they haven't been maintained during all that time, so please excuse their poor condition. We're planning to do something about that, but first we'd like to have an idea of what we're starting with.
I've already posted five Japanese swords and knives on the Nihonto Message Board (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5997), and it was suggested that I post the six non-Japanese items here.
I'm eager to learn more about this collection. I've been reading about the construction and history of the Japanese swords, but I have to admit that I know very little about the items that I'm posting on this site. Some of them appear to be European and some of the others are anybody's guess, including several odd-looking wavy-bladed swords and daggers. Several of the items look like total junk to me, although I wouldn't mind getting a confirmation of that from some of the forum members.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
Dana P
(The items are numbered from "P6" through "P11" and are attached to this post and the following post.)
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P8
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P8
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P7
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P7
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P6
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P6
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Dana P
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| Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Here are the next three sets of photos. Thanks again.
Dana P
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P9
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P9
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P10
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P10
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P11
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P11
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Adam Rose
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| Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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P8 and P9 are Moro Kris (or Sundang) from the Philippines. I'm not an expert but P8 looks like it might be a decent quality one, I doubt the handle on P9 is original and the blade quality looks lower.
P10 and P11 are Indonesian Keris.
P7 is a Kindjal, Caucasian or Russian I would think.
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Bennison N
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| Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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*EDIT* Whoops... I said pretty much the exact same thing as Adam did...
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
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Nathan M Wuorio
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| Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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P6 looks like a naval dirk to me, maybe early 19th century? Probably with a bone handle.
Nathan.
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Dana P
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| Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, thanks very much for all the excellent responses so far! I never could have figured this out by myself. Now that I have some useful names I'm going to look up all of these weapons to see what I can learn about them.
Nathan, do you have any idea what the function is of that metal mesh device that's hanging from the scabbard of P6? Also, when you say it "looks like a naval dirk", are you referring to the navy of a particular region? I'm sorry, but I really am quite clueless about these things.
I'm quite concerned about the advanced corrosion that is evident on some of the blades. Is this something I can tackle myself, or must I take them to a weapons expert? Can I at least apply a light coating of some type of oil to stop it from spreading?
Thanks again,
Dana P
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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The thing hanging from the dagger is often refered to as a sword knot. It used to allow one to secure a weapon in the hand, but later became mostly ceremonial. It actually looks quite a bit like the one hanging from my navy dress saber right now, which supports the naval dirk theory.
I love those pieces. I always meant to buy a nice kris when I was stationed in Japan and visiting the Philippines frequently, but never found the right one. And I've always had a soft spot for the kindjal. Nasty little CQB weapon. You have a nice collection.
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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P7 is definitely a Kinjal. I would lean towards Caucassian origins mainly because of the decoration - but one must bear in mind that in Russian army those Caucasian weapons were quite popular so it has, most likely, belonged to Russian officer. I wold hazard a guess that it is a 19th century one - seen somes quite like this one, but I am no expert in those weapons. Could we get a close-up on scabbard choke? it looks like it has something engraved on it, if it is in Russian it would help solve the matter.
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Dana P
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Artis Aboltins wrote: | | P7 is definitely a Kinjal. I would lean towards Caucassian origins mainly because of the decoration - but one must bear in mind that in Russian army those Caucasian weapons were quite popular so it has, most likely, belonged to Russian officer. I wold hazard a guess that it is a 19th century one - seen somes quite like this one, but I am no expert in those weapons. Could we get a close-up on scabbard choke? it looks like it has something engraved on it, if it is in Russian it would help solve the matter. |
Yes, it does. Here's a close-up:
Attachment: 195.25 KB
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Well, that does clears it up a bit - it is written there in russian: Master K. Milandarov Ukr. Hunzah
K might stand for Konstantin which is a fairly common name in Russia. Ukr might be short for Ukraine, but I am not certain on that since city of Hunzah (Khunzakh) is in Dagestan. Another possibility is that Ukr stands for short of "ukrasil" - that would mean decorated - essentially that this master docorated the blade in the city of Hunzah..
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Nathan M Wuorio
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dana, are there any markings on the dirk? Maybe somewhere on the brass crossguard or blade? If there are any, some close up photos might reveal its origins. An armoury stamp or makers mark would help to determine where it was made and the approximate date of manufacture. Any history of how you came to posses it would also help. Actually, upon reviewing some dirks, I have found that the design continued to be used into World War I and World War II. My knowledge of these weapons is limited, and I know more about cutlasses and hangers than I do dirks, so maybe it's not 19th century. I hope someone else who knows more posts something.
Nathan.
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Jim Mearkle
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, six different bladed weapons! I was thinking a six-bladed weapon would probably be a Swiss army knife!
Just kidding! I'll return you to the people that know what they are talking about!
Jim
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Dana P
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Artis Aboltins wrote: | Well, that does clears it up a bit - it is written there in russian: Master K. Milandarov Ukr. Hunzah
K might stand for Konstantin which is a fairly common name in Russia. Ukr might be short for Ukraine, but I am not certain on that since city of Hunzah (Khunzakh) is in Dagestan. Another possibility is that Ukr stands for short of "ukrasil" - that would mean decorated - essentially that this master docorated the blade in the city of Hunzah.. |
Thanks, Artis, that's very revealing. I think I'm starting to understand why some people find these weapons to be so interesting. Now that we have a name and a possible location I think that it would be fascinating to find out more about the person who made this weapon, the person who owned it, where they travelled with it and what they did with it. But I would be horrified if I found out that they used it to kill somebody! I would probably drop it in the garbage.
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Dana P
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan M Wuorio wrote: | | Dana, are there any markings on the dirk? Maybe somewhere on the brass crossguard or blade? If there are any, some close up photos might reveal its origins. An armoury stamp or makers mark would help to determine where it was made and the approximate date of manufacture. Any history of how you came to posses it would also help. Actually, upon reviewing some dirks, I have found that the design continued to be used into World War I and World War II. My knowledge of these weapons is limited, and I know more about cutlasses and hangers than I do dirks, so maybe it's not 19th century. I hope someone else who knows more posts something. |
There are some identical-looking "scratch marks" in two locations on the scabbard, but they don't look like any writing I am familiar with.
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P6
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Nathan M Wuorio
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, that is interesting. I think I might be getting closer to dating it. I'm thinking late 19th or early 20th century, based on the sword knot and amount of age to the leather, and the condition of the blade and grip. You might also want to try Sword Forum, someone there might have more info. I don't recognize the markings though, and I really can't place the country of origin. I do hope the information I have given so far has been helpful.
Nathan.
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Mon 21 Sep, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dana P wrote: | | Artis Aboltins wrote: | Well, that does clears it up a bit - it is written there in russian: Master K. Milandarov Ukr. Hunzah
K might stand for Konstantin which is a fairly common name in Russia. Ukr might be short for Ukraine, but I am not certain on that since city of Hunzah (Khunzakh) is in Dagestan. Another possibility is that Ukr stands for short of "ukrasil" - that would mean decorated - essentially that this master docorated the blade in the city of Hunzah.. |
Thanks, Artis, that's very revealing. I think I'm starting to understand why some people find these weapons to be so interesting. Now that we have a name and a possible location I think that it would be fascinating to find out more about the person who made this weapon, the person who owned it, where they travelled with it and what they did with it. But I would be horrified if I found out that they used it to kill somebody! I would probably drop it in the garbage. |
Indeed, there is quite a bit of a "detective story" in finding it out, is it not? truly fascinating how the items made in one end of the globe might end up in completely opposite end a century or two later and stil tell a story of their own. As about someone having been killed with it - I would not worry about it overmuch, chances that an officer had to use such highly decorated weapon in real combat are, I think, right about the same as Sam Barris having to use his navy dress saber in combat.
You menthioned being worried about the corrosion on the blades - I would advise, for starters, to take a look here: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_care.html and see the part about protection and maintenence. At the same time I would suggest looking for an expert in restoring antique weapons to deal with more problematic spots rather than tackle it yourself if you have no previous experience with this, as routine maintenence is one thing but proper restoration job is something entirely diferent.
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This is a standard topic