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Christopher VaughnStrever
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 Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Ok, here are the others... actually about 24 or so words, but this will be all and I wont bug you at all... for at least a few months. Just kidding, though your help here is extremly valuable to me and I do appreciate your help and taking the time to record these items and post them.
Abnehmen
Absetzen
Bec de Faucon
Blo(is) The "is" part is a letter I cannot type it actually looks more like a "j" connected with an arch to a capital "B" the word means "an opening" I do see this letter a few times and if you could sound that particular letter after or before the word, that would help me to say a few other words
Croix
Dague
Demy Hache
Schlachtschule
Dobringer (there are actually two dots above the "o")
Fuhlen (there are actually two dots above the "u")
Halbschwert
Harnisch
Indes
Knieheber
Lucke (there are actually two dots above the "u")
Mordschlag
Nachreisen
Oberstich
Queue (I am thinking like a pool queue)
Ritterlich
Versetzen
Schlag
Was Sehrt, das lehrt
Zornort
Thank you again and again!
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
Last edited by Christopher VaughnStrever on Wed 06 Jan, 2010 6:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Christopher VaughnStrever
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the pollaxe book,
Mr. Hugh Knight; I like your advise on the Pell that you describe and will be making one some time soon. In the book as far as I have read, you mention tagerts of wood or metal to be used in the pell. I will be training on drills of the basics with a sharp pollaxe. I do want to get accustomed to the proper weight proportions. I am considering the subject matter at the bottom of page 35 talking about damaging our joints, so I was wanting to be able to use something (in place of wood or metal) that I could smash without a shock to my whole body and change out easily. I have a few Ideas, but was wondering if you had a suggestion or route that I should take.
Here is a large downside, the majority of the time I will most likely training by myself, however I do have a video camera that i can set up and record my movements that will allow me to look and evaluate my actions. I do have a couple of buddies that can come, then I can teach, and we can practice together. Your detail on practicing is a great part in your book. I will be making a few poll wasters (thank you for those instructions in the book) for when I do drills with others.
Thanks for any tips or advice!
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher VaughnStrever wrote: | Regarding the pollaxe book,
Mr. Hugh Knight; I like your advise on the Pell that you describe and will be making one some time soon. In the book as far as I have read, you mention tagerts of wood or metal to be used in the pell. I will be training on drills of the basics with a sharp pollaxe. I do want to get accustomed to the proper weight proportions. I am considering the subject matter at the bottom of page 35 talking about damaging our joints, so I was wanting to be able to use something (in place of wood or metal) that I could smash without a shock to my whole body and change out easily. I have a few Ideas, but was wondering if you had a suggestion or route that I should take.
Here is a large downside, the majority of the time I will most likely training by myself, however I do have a video camera that i can set up and record my movements that will allow me to look and evaluate my actions. I do have a couple of buddies that can come, then I can teach, and we can practice together. Your detail on practicing is a great part in your book. I will be making a few poll wasters (thank you for those instructions in the book) for when I do drills with others.
Thanks for any tips or advice! |
Hello,
First, define a "sharp" pollaxe. Correctly speaking, you should be using a pollaxe with a hammer and spike (mail and bec de faucon) configuration, so the only "sharp" parts that it could have are the dague and queue. Using those ends for thrusting will ruin your pell in very short order, so I strongly suggest not using that for pell work. Instead, a practice pollaxe of the sort discussed in my book should be used.
Since a rubber head will eventually get destroyed on the pell, I suggest making a second practice pollaxe (one for partner practice, one for pell work) made of wood. Nothing fancy, just get a piece of wood thicker than the shaft you're using and cut a hole in it so it can slide down over the shaft, then tape or bolt it in place (the tape is less likely to break). Yes, this will break, too, and more often than a rubber head would, but it's cheap and easy to replace.
Alternatively, you could buy a piece of metal pipe that's threaded on one side for a cap. Screw the cap on tightly--maybe even solder it in place--to one side of the pipe. Now cut a hole in the pipe the size of your shaft such that when you slide it over the shaft 4-5 inches of the pipe stick out on the side of the cap and 8-9 inches stick out on the side without the cap. Now hammer the longer, uncapped side of the pipe with a hammer until it's flat. Drill a hole in both the pipe and in the shaft of the axe and bolt them together. This should make for quite a durable tool for pell work (only the pell!!!), and have a nice weight to it. I haven't tried this myself, yet, but it's an idea that's recently come to me that I want to try.
Finally, and I hate to say it, but this material cannot be learned in solo practice. Yes, the basic strikes can (and should) be practiced on the pell, but the art of the axe is about how the axes interact, and that can only be understood and developed in partner practice. I give several suggestions for finding a practice partner in the training chapter, so give those a try.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher VaughnStrever wrote: | | Blo(is) The "is" part is a letter I cannot type it actually looks more like a "j" connected with an arch to a capital "B" the word means "an opening" I do see this letter a few times and if you could sound that particular letter after or before the word, that would help me to say a few other words. |
This word is "bloß"; it is spelled with two Ss when you don't use the double S, like this: Bloss.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Hi Hugh,
| Hugh Knight wrote: | | First, define a "sharp" pollaxe. Correctly speaking, you should be using a pollaxe with a hammer and spike (mail and bec de faucon) configuration, so the only "sharp" parts that it could have are the dague and queue. Using those ends for thrusting will ruin your pell in very short order, so I strongly suggest not using that for pell work. Instead, a practice pollaxe of the sort discussed in my book should be used. |
I'm with you in not using a sharp axe for pell work - in general - however, axe-bladed versions do appear in the sources, so they aren't incorrect for the art. If you're confining your study to "La Jeu", then I'd agree with you.
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi Hugh,
| Hugh Knight wrote: | | First, define a "sharp" pollaxe. Correctly speaking, you should be using a pollaxe with a hammer and spike (mail and bec de faucon) configuration, so the only "sharp" parts that it could have are the dague and queue. Using those ends for thrusting will ruin your pell in very short order, so I strongly suggest not using that for pell work. Instead, a practice pollaxe of the sort discussed in my book should be used. |
I'm with you in not using a sharp axe for pell work - in general - however, axe-bladed versions do appear in the sources, so they aren't incorrect for the art. If you're confining your study to "La Jeu", then I'd agree with you.
Cheers,
Christian |
Same for the " Jeu de la hache " since it seems to be more a duelling form manual and if all the images and techniques are based on having a hammer and bec using a variant weapon makes it something else and wouldn't be optimum when learning the techniques of the text.
But if the goal is also the wider battlefield uses of halberd or bill then one may have to adapt techniques to the type of weapon head i.e. using " Le jeu de la hache " as general principles but there would be more guesswork involved as I don't think any " battlefield " specific training books survive ? ( I could be wrong about the last.   ).
With other weapons like the Partisan I think there are other sources like some 16th and 17th century Italian Masters.
General work with the staff also has many commonalities with the poleaxe.
Well, the problem is one of " focus ": if one tries to learn all possible related weapons at the same time it can be difficult to get anywhere without getting seriously confused or just doing random stuff ! Mastering one main discipline using the specific weapon of that discipline may be a better idea at least until one has at least gotten past the basics.
Exploring other weapons and style can still be considered as worthwhile I think as one should be able to explore other possibilities even if just because of curiosity or to get it out of one's system ?
I guess the issue is one of how deeply one wants to concentrate on competence with one discipline versus sampling a wide variety of disciplines and weapons ? Hard to do both wel at the same timel but I would suggest spending 80% of ones energy on a core discipline and the other 20% indulging one's curiosity sort of just having a bit of fun ! ( Yes one has to be serious to really get good or do justice to any martial art but a little fun is needed to stay motivated i.e. if one doesn't get something enjoyable out of the activity one will not stay with it for any length of time ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | I'm with you in not using a sharp axe for pell work - in general - however, axe-bladed versions do appear in the sources, so they aren't incorrect for the art. If you're confining your study to "La Jeu", then I'd agree with you. |
The sources I reference in my book all use the hammer and spike configuration exclusively, hence my comment. I was not trying to imply no pollaxes had axe blades.
The only axe-bladed pollaxes appear in Codex 11093 and Falkner, as far as I know. The vast majority of Fechtbuch sources use only the hammer and spike configuration, not just Le Jeu. There's nothing wrong with using a bladed pollaxe, of course, but when doing so blows should be done with the hammer head, not with the axe blade, so the "sharp" part still doesn't apply.
The axe blade or taillent was used extensively in war (my theory is that it was used for chopping weapon shafts, *not* for striking opponents), but more rarely in the kind of single combats the Fechtbücher cover; Codex 11093 shows the taillent being used for hooking, and I believe it is for this it was normally used in single combat. One exception that proves the rule is mentioned in Le Petit Jehan de Saintre where the hero uses his axe blade (specifically mentioned) to strike his opponent's fingers, but other references imply the hammer head being used for most striking blows.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: |
The axe blade or taillent was used extensively in war (my theory is that it was used for chopping weapon shafts, *not* for striking opponents), but more rarely in the kind of single combats the Fechtbücher cover; Codex 11093 shows the taillent being used for hooking, and I believe it is for this it was normally used in single combat. One exception that proves the rule is mentioned in Le Petit Jehan de Saintre where the hero uses his axe blade (specifically mentioned) to strike his opponent's fingers, but other references imply the hammer head being used for most striking blows. |
Just a guess but in war one would face less well armoured opponents and a sharp edge might be usable against unprotected areas like legs when half armour was worn as well many of the lower order fighters might choose agility over protection.
The axe blade corners are certainly also usable for hooking although the bec would be better.
Oh, the threat of a sharp edge might help in discouraging a grab by unprotected hands/forearms on a battlefield also ?
Chopping shafts is also a possibility but against weapons with long languettes would be ineffective but not all polearms would be equipped with languettes.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Hi Hugh,
I didn't believe you were implying that there were no axe-bladed poleaxes, but rather that you felt they weren't used in these sources.
There are a number of non-technical source illustrations of judicial duels fought with axe-bladed poleaxes; among them is a lovely illustration of a duel in the Thomas Lirer Chronicle. Also Falkner shows the blade in use too, and not just the hammer. I believe 11093 does as well, but will have to double-check.
I suspect the reasons for this are two-fold. First, the flat blade would work excellently at folding in areas like the side of a bevor. The shape of the blade is advantageous here in finding this target; it would be harder to hit this reliably with the pronged hammer face. Secondly, if you look at the shape of the points of the blades on the Wallace and Higgins axes, you've got lovely puncturing and hooking implements built right into the shape of the blade.
The masters didn't appear to be too worried about exact weapon configurations. Falkner even says "if you've got a murder axe or a halberd..." Weapons of similar shape would have used largely overlapping techniques, hence Talhoffer's free interspersing of messer and arming sword with his buckler fighting.
Best regards,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Oh, to get back to the subject of books. 
Just received the two books that where back ordered or missed the first shipment for some reason ?
1) The Gladiatoria Fechtbuch: The German text and illustration followed by a translation/interpretation.
2) The Ambraser Codex.: Each plate has an interpretation.
I have only skimmed the texts but Hugh does seem to give very useful interpretations and in those cases where interpretations are more guesswork he says so and he makes it clear when he is reasonably certain about the interpretations and when he is less certain or is just giving a best guess.
Very pleased with these two books also and they are hard cover.
Hugh mentions that in some cases the source material is from lower quality digital scans that he would have preferred but that the pictures are at least clear enough that one can see the action clearly.
Cost and difficulties in getting access to the original to get maximum quality scans I assume being a factor.
The low prices of these books make them a great bargain and an invaluable resource and I want to thank Hugh for all the work involved in researching the material and putting all together in a reader friendly presentation.
The LuLu ordering process was easy and shipping was extremely fast and efficient i.e. a good buying experience.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Just a guess but in war one would face less well armoured opponents and a sharp edge might be usable against unprotected areas like legs when half armour was worn as well many of the lower order fighters might choose agility over protection.
The axe blade corners are certainly also usable for hooking although the bec would be better.
Oh, the threat of a sharp edge might help in discouraging a grab by unprotected hands/forearms on a battlefield also ?
Chopping shafts is also a possibility but against weapons with long languettes would be ineffective but not all polearms would be equipped with languettes. |
All that is possible (except, perhaps, the prevention of grabbing), but probably secondary at best. Legs, for example, might be unarmored (some lower-class troops left off their leg armor, or, at least one leg) but legs are tough to hit in a good line because of how the troops cover each other. I belieeve the primary purpose of the axe blade was to cut weapons: After all, that's why languets existed.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christopher VaughnStrever
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | First, define a "sharp" pollaxe. |
A&A's Burgundian poleaxe - http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole217.html
| Quote: | | Using those ends for thrusting will ruin your pell in very short order |
Correct, I would like to demolish, while training. An easy replacable target within the pell is what I am trying to figure out.
I have read thoroughly the princples of using and making wasters, these would be used with a partner.
| Quote: | | Finally, and I hate to say it, but this material cannot be learned in solo practice. Yes, the basic strikes can (and should) be practiced on the pell |
Correct, I will be able to have a partner, however I can pratice the solo basic strike (much more often)
| Quote: | | There's nothing wrong with using a bladed pollaxe, of course, but when doing so blows should be done with the hammer head, not with the axe blade, so the "sharp" part still doesn't apply. |
Yes I agree and have understood this principle. Of which is how I would like to perform solo drills.
| Quote: | There are a number of non-technical source illustrations of judicial duels fought with axe-bladed poleaxes; among them is a lovely illustration of a duel in the Thomas Lirer Chronicle.
I just looked at 11093 again and at least two plates show charged blows with the axe facing forward. |
This issue that bladed poleaxes were used in war and duels is mentioned in the book concerning pollaxes by Mr. Knight. And is why I would like to practice with the above mentioned poll weapon.
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
Last edited by Christopher VaughnStrever on Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:26 am; edited 3 times in total
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | Addendum: I just looked at 11093 again and at least two plates show charged blows with the axe facing forward. This is unsurprising, given how often such a situation is depicted in the non-technical sources. |
Whether the axe blade faces forward or not isn't relative because that can relate more to how you plan to thrust or displace than to any strike you might throw. Because of the complete lack of text, it's almost impossible to tell who is doing what in any of the pictures there. With regard to 11093, when you see the axe being *used*, the hammer face is what is shown. I will attach a picture that almost certainly shows a blow being displaced, and it is clear in this one that the strike was made with the hammer.
I can't speak to Falkner because I've been unable to get a copy of the MS (still waiting for you, Christian) so I can't comment on that. But a halberd's not a pollaxe, and if the mordaxt he shows is the same as the one in Mair, then neither is that, because neither of them *have* hammer heads. The weapon in Mair that everyone would call a pollaxe has an axe blade and a spike (no hammer) and he specificially calls it a halberd.
As for your idea about specialized techniques, you are absolutely right, as suggested in the example I gave from Le Petit Jehan de Saintre.
 Attachment: 124.54 KB
Note the hammer face forward.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Oh, to get back to the subject of books.
Just received the two books that where back ordered or missed the first shipment for some reason ?
1) The Gladiatoria Fechtbuch: The German text and illustration followed by a translation/interpretation.
2) The Ambraser Codex.: Each plate has an interpretation.
I have only skimmed the texts but Hugh does seem to give very useful interpretations and in those cases where interpretations are more guesswork he says so and he makes it clear when he is reasonably certain about the interpretations and when he is less certain or is just giving a best guess.
Very pleased with these two books also and they are hard cover.
Hugh mentions that in some cases the source material is from lower quality digital scans that he would have preferred but that the pictures are at least clear enough that one can see the action clearly.
Cost and difficulties in getting access to the original to get maximum quality scans I assume being a factor.
The low prices of these books make them a great bargain and an invaluable resource and I want to thank Hugh for all the work involved in researching the material and putting all together in a reader friendly presentation.
The LuLu ordering process was easy and shipping was extremely fast and efficient i.e. a good buying experience. |
Hello Jean,
Thank you very much for your kind words. The Gladiatoria, in particular, is something I'm very proud of.
As for the scans, you're spot on. Getting permission to use good scans of the original would have been exorbitant.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christopher VaughnStrever
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The weapon in Mair that everyone would call a pollaxe has an axe blade and a spike (no hammer) and he specificially calls it a halberd. |
i am confused by this statement....
So, what I have has an axe blade and a 4 pronged spike on the other end, it is a poleaxe or halberd?
If this is the case; is there a completley other system of using a halberd that I should be reading, rather than the book I am reading by mr. knight?
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Hey Hugh,
Sorry for the delay(s) on Falkner...I'm workin' on it. 
The picture you've included from 11093 only proves both sides were used. If you look at the previous image in that ms., you'll see the guy clearly winding up for the mother of all blows with the axe face - look at the alignment of his lead hand.
The word 'mordagst' isn't used consistently in period. And, in fact, Falkner shows both hammer and bladed axes of various configurations in his axe material. And Mair's actually a good example of why we shouldn't hunt too much for dinstinctions with differences, because after distinguishing halberd from poleaxe, he then goes on to show techniques that are interchangeable.
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher VaughnStrever wrote: | | Quote: | | The weapon in Mair that everyone would call a pollaxe has an axe blade and a spike (no hammer) and he specificially calls it a halberd. |
i am confused by this statement....
So, what I have has an axe blade and a 4 pronged spike on the other end, it is a poleaxe or halberd?
If this is the case; is there a completley other system of using a halberd that I should be reading, rather than the book I am reading by mr. knight? |
No, the weapon you have is a pollaxe. The four-pronged bit is a hammer head--the prongs are there to make the blow stick. This is perfectly usable with the book you have.
The weapon in Mair to which I was referring has an axe blade and a *single* back spike, and he calls it a halberd:
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00...?seite=173
(Don't be confused by the extra spikes, they're actually the croissee and are perpendicular to the head of the axe).
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Hi Christopher,
| Christopher VaughnStrever wrote: | i am confused by this statement....
So, what I have has an axe blade and a 4 pronged spike on the other end, it is a poleaxe or halberd?
If this is the case; is there a completley other system of using a halberd that I should be reading, rather than the book I am reading by mr. knight? |
By most reckonings, such a weapon would be a form of poleaxe. A halberd has an axe blade in front, a back fluke or curved spike on the opposite site, and a spear tip.
The weapon you describe - with a blade and multi-pronged spike - is a poleaxe. The ones in 11093 that Hugh and I have been discussing are closely replicated, for instance, by the Arms & Armour 'Burgundian Axe', right down to the tapered hafts.
But...we should be careful: our desire to neatly classify all these weapons would've been alien to our ancestors, and regional and temporal variances abound in the naming of polearms in the period.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | The picture you've included from 11093 only proves both sides were used. If you look at the previous image in that ms., you'll see the guy clearly winding up for the mother of all blows with the axe face - look at the alignment of his lead hand. |
We'll have to agree to disagree. And even if you're right, that single picture is not enough to contradict all of the other material out there that shows the majority of blows were done with the hammer.
| Quote: | | The word 'mordagst' isn't used consistently in period. And, in fact, Falkner shows both hammer and bladed axes of various configurations in his axe material. And Mair's actually a good example of why we shouldn't hunt too much for dinstinctions with differences, because after distinguishing halberd from poleaxe, he then goes on to show techniques that are interchangeable. |
I don't see where Mair uses a pollaxe to show any interchange. He uses a halberd and he uses a mordaxt. The latter is simply a short version of his halberd in that it has an axe blade and a spike, no hammer, so of course there's similarity of technique. Both are used for unarmored techniques (I say this not because they aren't in armor--Talhoffer shows armored techniques out of armor all the time--but because of the targets he thrusts into that you wouldn't in armor). So no mention of pollaxes anywhere; we only assume they're the same because some people decided to call them pollaxes. As far as I'm concerned, and going by Mair to support this, anything that has an axe blade backed by a hook/spike is a halberd. And going by the plays in both Mair and Meyer, halbred techniques are significantly different from pollaxe plays.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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