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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's this sunday, tomorrow.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Windlass         Reply with quote

Tom King wrote:
To any who care I bought it and I'm returning it as fast as possible. There are so many problems with this sword I cant even begin to list all of them. The scabbards effed in ways that seem ludicrous (most notably the leather is stressed and the silver plating was turned from the box)Besides the casting problems on the hilt, THE GRIP IS TOO DAMN SHORT!!! I'm a small guy with 4in wide hands and i cant swing it correctly! Warning to everyone, STAY AWAY. Hanwei Tinker viking here I come!


Actually Tom, the grip length looks about right to be historically accurate. Most (although not all) viking grips are less than 4". For most of us, who were raised using tools like a hammer, it takes some time and practice to get used to properly wielding a viking sword. But once you catch on, the short grip makes sense and is even preferable in some ways. Otherwise they would not have been made this way for hundreds of years. There is a a long thread on gripping a viking sword here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2478

I've had a look at both these similar tinker and windlass models and agree that the tinker is much nicer (although personally I don't like the finish on Hanwei blades). However, Windlass makes other Viking models that I do like, with a nice hand-made feel that makes me enjoy the imperfections.

I would like to get something off my chest here. This is not aimed at anyone in particular. I have been reading this site nearly since its inception and contributing for a few years. Almost every time someone seeks advice about an entry level sword, someone else automatically pipes up, dismissing all entry level swords and telling them to buy an Albion. This is a bit like asking for advice on buying a Ford and being told to save up for a Lexus. Not all Fords are junk and not everyone can afford a Lexus. And besides...this may come as a shock...but not everyone likes Lexus, and some people who can afford to buy a Lexus every month still like Mustangs. Dismissing all the Ford drivers is just elitist snobbery. Car magazines understand that although most people admire and fantasize about supercars, the reality is that more people drive entry level cars, and thus they intelligently compare similar price/class cars. I see no difference here.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Windlass         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:


I would like to get something off my chest here. This is not aimed at anyone in particular. I have been reading this site nearly since its inception and contributing for a few years. Almost every time someone seeks advice about an entry level sword, someone else automatically pipes up, dismissing all entry level swords and telling them to buy an Albion. This is a bit like asking for advice on buying a Ford and being told to save up for a Lexus. Not all Fords are junk and not everyone can afford a Lexus. And besides...this may come as a shock...but not everyone likes Lexus, and some people who can afford to buy a Lexus every month still like Mustangs. Dismissing all the Ford drivers is just elitist snobbery. Car magazines understand that although most people admire and fantasize about supercars, the reality is that more people drive entry level cars, and thus they intelligently compare similar price/class cars. I see no difference here.


I wonder when eiltist became a bad word that is to be used as an insult? To me it means to strive to be the best, and to praise the best. I think that is one of the things this website is about. Many of us can't afford to buy a sword made by Albion, or Jake Powning, Eljay, or Vince Evans, but we recognize its quality and give credit where it is due.

On this particular thread, I don't see anyone recommending the high priced swords. The Albion that's talked about is the relatively inexpensive Squire Line Viking, not the Jarl. Del Tin and Hanwei are also mentioned as better alternatives - not the swords of the elite. If you want to used the car comparison, this particular Windlass sword is not being characterized as a Ford Mustang, but as a Yugo.

When I first started buying swords, they were entry level and turned out to be low quality and disfunctional. I wish somebody would have warned me that they weren't worth the money, and if I was willing to spend a little more, I could get something functional (like that Ford Mustang) that I wouldn't want to throw away.
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Once again, my rant was not aimed at anyone in particular, or even at this thread in particular, and I don't want to get drawn into particulars. Those thoughts just happened to pop out this time.

What I like about 'myArmoury' is the emphasis on history, historical accuracy in modern replicas, and solid evidence.

I have read many comments from people who appreciate the fine points of more expensive swords but who are still able to credit that some entry level swords (by which I mean the least expensive functional swords, not wall hangers) have value as collectibles, and in some cases would have made darn fine weapons of war. Then there are a few (perhaps a very visible minority) who simply dismiss them all outright as a class without having even handled a particular product or even looked at it in real life. Since the reality is that most collectors mostly own entry level swords, this attitude belittles most collectors and likely makes them feel somehow unworthy of this site. This may even chase people away from this site to other 'friendly sites', which would be a huge shame. My point is that some sensitivity would help, and an open mind to evaluating each product according to first-hand evidence, not according to generalizations.

But I will say no more.

-JD
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford-

This topic is about this particular sword: on which many people have offered specific opinion and recommendations, including budget-minded offerings. Additionally, people such as myself have attempted to correct mistaken claims or interpretations of historic precedence and whatnot. This topic is a good indication of what is good about this site.

It is absolutely inappropriate for you to "rant" (your word, not mine) on myArmoury.com. Keep that for other sites and not this one. it is also off-topic to this topic. It's an extremely valid discussion (really) and worth having. Should you wish to raise it without ranting, I encourage you to do so.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Windlass         Reply with quote

J.D. , a modified hammer grip does work, but the full handshake grip is completely useless. I actually found the real sword (hilt and blade) on an Amon Amarth album of all places!
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Windlass         Reply with quote

Tom King wrote:
J.D. , a modified hammer grip does work, but the full handshake grip is completely useless.


How so Tom? What goes wrong with the handshake grip on this sword? Personally, on viking style grips I find that a loose grip with natural transitions between more hammer and more handshake works best. But having owned a number of them, I find that each handle style asks for its own grip and tells you what it wants if given enough time and play.
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 5:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the swords too blade heavy to be held with no lower support. It just isn't comfortable.
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Ken Speed





Joined: 09 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jan, 2010 5:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom opined that, "......the windlass sword could have worked for me.....if they hadn't gone and messed it up by covering the scabbard with those two chunks of faux reindeer fur. WTF?! "


Tom, I can only surmise that you have no appreciation of how truly difficult it is to stalk and successfully bag a faux reindeer. They are, after all, almost as rare as naugas and we know naugas are soon to be put on the endangered specie list along with cultured pearls but I really don't want to discuss the difficulties of educating shellfish right now.

Those who hunt the faux reindeer will tell you that their habitat severely limited, facsimile forests don't exactly grow on trees, you know! Not to mention the extreme difficulty of distinguishing the faux reindeer from the faux reindeer decoy, a skill that takes years to hone. Needless to say, camoflage, when hunting in a facsimile forest becomes...confusing.....to say the least. "Am I pretending to be an imitation tree/" is a conundrum that has left more than one faux reindeer hunter rendered insensible, the odor of alcohol being completely unrelated to their stupor, of course!

Weaponry and practice with the weaponry is a huge problem when hunting the faux reindeer. Many faux reindeer hunters have found themselves escorted out of shooting ranges by the local constabulary when they have explained that they need a faux reindeer target so they can practice shooting at it with their imaginary rifles. Policemen seem to be a remarkably skeptical group. Fortunately Albion Armourers having made the technological breakthrough of the 21st century with their invisible aluminum sword are now working on imaginary rifles and bows and arrows expressly to hunt faux reindeer,

So, Tom, please don't sneer at those hardy souls who dedicate their lives to the chase of such elusive prey. As for me, I'm off to hunt jackalope in Saskatchewan where they grow, I'm told, to enormous size!
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Tom King




Location: florida
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jan, 2010 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thats actually a quote of me quoting someone else.
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jan, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ken, amazing post. VERY informative. I thought I saw one outside when I was harvesting my potato tree, but i must have Imagined it.


and on a serious note, JD does have some validity to what he is saying. As a 15yr old w/ no job or income and parents who are not the most supportive of my hobby (but they let me do it, I can't complain TOO much), I am totally limited to entry level swords. I think that Hanwie and thier tinkers and practicals are some of the best things that ever happened to me! (just dont buy until at least the 3rd generation, they leave US to do prototype testing)

and if were looking for good viking cheapies, theirs always that tinker, and swordbuyersguide.com is really great with recommendations as far as affordable swords go.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom King wrote:
the swords too blade heavy to be held with no lower support. It just isn't comfortable.


Well, I'm not sure if we can get on exactly the same page unless we were standing side by side trying it together. This stuff is pretty hard to describe in words and I only looked at this piece, I didn't handle it. But I have a preference for blade-heavy cutters like this, and would say in general its all in the motion - when one keeps them moving, and when necessary balances the flat pommel against the heel of the hand for support, it seems to work.

I'm sorry I lost my patience and strayed from the fact the other day. I have owned many Windlasses and probably handled nearly every model over the past 5 years. The only generalization I would make about them is that it is impossible to generalize. Some models handle well, some not. Some are pretty historical, some are not. Even the same model can be solid or rattly from one unit to the next. They have also changed over the years. In the beginning with MRL they made some inferior imitiations of Del Tin models (probably to hit the same market), then seemed to hit a golden age for a few years, and right now they are turning out some pretty weird stuff (stag horn swords? Pillow swords?). That is my opinion.

And Roger, your alternatives were very good - although obviously requiring some more dollars at each step (special sales notwithstanding). I would have said the same.

Here are my more detailed thoughts on the Windlass, and the closest alternative by Hanwei/Tinker.

I prefer the Hanwei in terms of aesthetics. The clean lines of the hilt furniture and the wicked 'spatha' like blade are cool. And these swords have a radical distal taper like an Albion, giving a sweet performance that you will not get from any Windlass viking that I have ever handled.

However....

In some respects I think the Windlass is actually more historical (not withstanding the made-for-TV movie scabbard). I do not like the bulbous hilt pieces nor the gaudy silver look, but if you look through Ian Pierce's book, you will see plenty of similar bulbous hilt forms, and for Vikings, the more gaudy the hilt the better (although obviously Windlass is using modern plating technologies to cut costs).

The Windlass blade as well (excepting the diamond cross section near the tip) is very typical of early Viking blade profiles. And according to the chapter on blades in Pierces book, these early swords generally did not have much distal taper. Combined with their generally short grips, that would likely make many real swords of the early viking age handle much like this one.

The Hanwei sword, on the other hand, seems to me to have a profile (something about the parallel blade meshed with the pointy tip) rather uncommon for Viking swords, and the distal taper is, perhaps, just too good to be true. Add to that the somewhat machined appearance of the Hanwei blades (as opposed to the obvious handmade look of Windlass). In several ways, this Hanwei sword is catering to the demands of the modern historical/performance sword market, rather than going for absolute historicity.

My general point, dear friends, is that things do not always fit into neat tidy boxes. To get perfect historicity, using period methods, we are going to have to pay 10 times as much as these swords. I believe the best sword is the one that one personally prefers out of the options that one can afford - either in 810, or 2010.
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: JD         Reply with quote

I find the big bladed choppers to be the best, but between 800 and 1100 viking swords drastically changed as more emphasis was put on stabbing. The tinker blade is a good compromise between an axe and a spear! And the problem with the handshake grip is that the sword would literally fall out of your hand at the hilt although on a lighter sword it might work. I find it strange that nobody thought of the fact that hilts got longer as the dark ages progressed, making it easier to weild with a hammer grip!
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Jason F




Location: Hudson, NH
Joined: 17 Aug 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Question for JD         Reply with quote

Hi JD and all.. I have been a member for a few years and have to say I have learned a great deal from this site!

JD: My experience with swords is mainly with longswords / hand and a half swords, please excuse the incorrect terminology but I hope you understand. I am a member of a school learning the techniques of Fiore and applying them in armoured/unarmoured tournaments. I truly love it!

I do have a interest in obtaining a viking sword and have had this interest for a while. I agree with your opinion of Windlass. Some I have owned have been quite good, others? not so much. I do own several swords, windlass to albion.

My question to you, do you have a recommendation for a windlass viking sword? Your responses here seem well informed and you have experience with this type of sword. Any thoughts would be great!

Thank you, Jason
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't want to speak for J.D. but you might want to hear other responses as well. I handled many Windlass swords and of their viking swords I like the Leuterit best. Good balance, nice looking, peened fittings...
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Jason F




Location: Hudson, NH
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Luka! Of course all opinions would be welcomed:)

Jason
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Jason,

I currently have their Leuterit, Damascus, 5-lobe, Sticklestad, and Ulfbehrt. I briefly had the Swedish Viking. I have commented on these before on other threads, but to summarize:

- I agree with Luka about the Leuterit's handling. Personally I didn't like the silvery hilt finish so I aged it.
- 5-lobe (no longer made) is very sturdy and also handles good (and has a longer handle if you like hammer grip).
- Sticklestad is quite light and fast, but feels a bit flimsy. It's pretty, if a guy can say that about a sword.
- Damascus i quite like as a wall-hanger, but wouldn't trust the blade for cutting and the pommel digs the hand if you're not careful (forget hammer grip). My older one is quite blade heavy, but the new ones seem thinner.
- Ulfberht (no longer made) handles well but a bit chunky in the hilt furniture for my taste.
- I sent Swedish back because it had a structural flaw (lateral pin through the pommel did not hold) and hard to handle.

Some of these were compared (against their mortal pumkin foes) here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=14442

My plan is to replace my 'starter swords' with custom orders as they (ever....so.....gradually) come in. So I will be putting them up for sale at some point. PM me if you want to talk about this - I could let the 5-lobe go for the right buyer.

-JD
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Josh Maxwell




Location: Michigan
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom King wrote:
I found it in a badly written book by R.G. Grant Warrior: a visual history of the fighting man. All It had was the picture without its source and an agnowledgments page with sources ranging from the viking ship museum of Roskilde, denmark to Halfdan Badgerbeard. It looks like a Museum piece in the picture, but it could be some overweight
pseudo-vikings toy. If windlass made a reproduction of it, then it must have some historical precidence.


Sorry to bring this up so late, but I just realized I own this book. As Tom has stated, the book is poorly written. If anyone else owns this book the sword he has mentioned is located on page 56. The book is copyright 2007.

The sword definitely appears to be a modern replica. My guess is that the sword was built using what looks to be a del tin blade that has been re-hilted and beat up a bit to give the impression of wear. The scabbard is also very close to what Windlass is offering, though this example also includes a wooden bridge covered in fur.

The sword presented in this book is so close to "The Sword of the Viking King", I'd say that it is either a prototype for the sword being offered today, or was simply copied by Windlass, as they've often done.



Just to clarify for anyone wondering.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Funny, every time this topic (of Windlass Vikings) comes up, I forget to mention the 'Transitional Viking'. Of course its not really a viking sword, and its no longer made, but damn that was a good sword for the money. I will never part with mine.
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 8:02 pm    Post subject: JD         Reply with quote

by odin, how many times will this thread be reserected! Let it die with the dignity it deserves. The bottom line is that windlass has terrible quality control and I'll probably never buy from them again (although the archers axe is pretty good). Theres so many side posts it's not worth checking anymore >.<
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