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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 404

PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
ive had Albions bend on me

Swords are supposed to bend, it's what keeps them from breaking. The fact that the sword bends is a good thing. Now if the sword bends and takes a set (doesn't spring back) then the sword has been heat-treated incorrectly. While Albions have there faults, I have never seen nor heard of one being poorly heat-treated. If you have a blade that takes a set send it back to the manufacturer because it's faulty.
Best,
Hadrian
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Or it's not faulty and he just pushed it over the edge.
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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suppose it's possible... I just don't see how someone could push the blade that far unintentionaly. It would really take a vise and some pretty harsh bending for it to take a set.
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Justin King
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Location: flagstaff,arizona
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian Coffin wrote:
Quote:
ive had Albions bend on me

Swords are supposed to bend, it's what keeps them from breaking. The fact that the sword bends is a good thing. Now if the sword bends and takes a set (doesn't spring back) then the sword has been heat-treated incorrectly. While Albions have there faults, I have never seen nor heard of one being poorly heat-treated. If you have a blade that takes a set send it back to the manufacturer because it's faulty.
Best,
Hadrian


I would not call a blade faulty just because it took a set, particularly in the context of this thread. Regardless of one's personal feelings on the matter, some of the things mentioned here include clear abuse of swords in regards to their original intended purpose, which has nothing to do with tire pells, concrete blocks, etc.
Most hardenable modern steels, properly hardened and tempered to 48-52 hrc (probably a fair average of current upper-end production sword blade hardness) will take at least some degree of set before catastrophic failure (fracture). Look at Albion's test videos, one demonstrates quite well that one of their Viking blades will set in both directions before snapping, which occured at over 180 degrees of flex. If the original poster had only experienced a problem with one sword, or even two, I might suggest a defect but I think in this case the useage is clearly not consistent with either the manufacturer's intent nor the *typical* historical useage of a sword.
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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes if you bend it past 180 degrees then it's your fault, I just couldn't see anyone bending the blade that much and not expect the blade to be damaged. I meant that the blade was faulty if it is taking a set after being bent three or four degrees out of line, which is all that should happen if one is simply cutting with the sword. I, however, stand corrected. I just couldn't imagine someone putting that much stress on a blade (or even wanting to).
Hadrian
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian Coffin wrote:
Yes if you bend it past 180 degrees then it's your fault, I just couldn't see anyone bending the blade that much and not expect the blade to be damaged. I meant that the blade was faulty if it is taking a set after being bent three or four degrees out of line, which is all that should happen if one is simply cutting with the sword. I, however, stand corrected. I just couldn't imagine someone putting that much stress on a blade (or even wanting to).
Hadrian


I would think that apart from a few initial test bendings one would avoid deliberate excessive bending of a blade ( Past 90 degrees is getting excessive I think if repeated. Past 180 degrees we are into destructive testing zone except for very thin bladed sword intended to be very whippy ).

The type of bending one would get in using the sword is a different thing I think: A thrust stopped by a hard target ( maille, plate or shield ) might easily bend a sword 45 degrees or more but almost never up to 90 degrees as one would pull one's thrust back quickly as one found that the sword wasn't penetrating.

The capability to bend, within reason, and not take a set also shows that one's sword is resilient enough that even a hard parry won't cause the sword to bend and stay bent !

Now, if one wants to reduce the useful life of a sword one can bend it a dozen times every time one pick it up, and even if the sword can take it, it doesn't do anything good to the sword longterm I think.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 11:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I’m with Adam. If you want a toy, buy a toy. If you want a weapon, buy a weapon. Confusing one with the other ends up nowhere good. A properly made sword is the result of complex metallurgy and subtle geometry blended with physics and martial training with the sole purpose of ending human life. You don’t have to be an “ancient” to realize that a sword can easily kill you or anyone near you in seconds if it’s treated with anything less than the respect every lethal weapon deserves.

On one hand, I can understand the appeal of an overbuilt sharpened crowbar to use as a beater, but that was something I wanted before I was really mature enough to appreciate what a sword is. It is “ok to have fun sometimes” (I personally find actual training very satisfying), but I cannot fathom why anyone would deliberately abuse a tool that could lay open their major arteries and leave them bleeding out on the ground before they even knew they’d screwed up. Yeah, I like to goof off, too. That’s why I own a plastic lightsaber alongside my Albions, so I and my friends can goof off free of consequences. Beyond being disrespectful to a deadly weapon, goofing off with a sharp blade (or even a blunt one) might be the last mistake you ever make.

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 2:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam Smith wrote:
I read these posts and am truly astonished by the level of ignorance that exists here.Why would you take any instrument and abuse it in a manner it was not meant to be used as a test to its quality. Would you tow a scrap iron trailor with your exotic sports car? Would you hold your best rifle by the barrel and swing the stock against rocks? Do you often use your best chef's knife as a cement trowel? The people that wright and contribute to these posts should limit themselves to large stones and dead wood branches as their istruments or tools of choice. The ancients cared for their weapons and used them for their intended purpose because it was truly a matter of life or death.

Have fun trying to find a sword that will slice through stone walls, cleve the roofs of cars or cut down oaks in a single blow.


Umm, I am unsure where the snide venom of this post comes from. Someone asked a (slightly vague) question, and others offered their opinion based on their own knowledge and experience of either solidly built cutters, re-enactors swords (which in nomal use take a beating) or over produced "historical-esque" blades. Some folks even discussed, in a quite reasonable and even handed maner the pros and cons of over-constructed blades.
Unsure how to close with a statement that will still be within the forum "politeness" guidlines
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Bryce Felperin




Location: San Jose, CA
Joined: 16 Feb 2006

Posts: 552

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Bryce Felperin wrote:
I also have heard good things about the Towton from Museum Replica's too, though I don't think that is in production any more, I may be in error though.


Not that one...do some searching and you should find some old thread about some fairly significant failures for the model...tang snapping at the guard ad the blade flying kinds of stuff.


Ah, didn't know from personal use. I just have a friend or two who has one and likes them. Thanks Joe for the information.
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Jon Sama





Joined: 18 Jul 2009

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albions have out right bended on me and not bended back.


.. i just want a sword that could take a beating. and realisticly..... in a battle ive allways pictured, clashing sword on sword. sword on a metal rimmed shield or hitting a guy in armour much more abusive then a free hanging soft log.

allso. the comment about price Luka. Souldnt a more expensive sword handle. and cut better then a less Expesive sword. you think its ok to abuse the darksword Craftsmanship but not albions and ATrims because they more expensive. we should just trust there a better sword based soley on price and documentaion? nonsense (i mean this is a friendly way, like jovial person would disagree with a buddy)

a sword is a weapon. i want to have faith in my weapon and to do so i like to test it..... dont judge me. = )

and yes whats wrong with having alittle fun

cheers

P.s remember this post was about the most abusable sword... not should we abuse swords

turn it
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Martin Murd




Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Joined: 15 Jun 2009

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings,

From the look of it, this subject is turned a bit off from the original question. As i understood, you wanted to know which manufacturer (private or factory) offers swords that can take maximum amount of "abuse". Now, that raises three questions in my head:

1) What do you intend to do with that sword? (I got an understanding that you plan to use it for full-contact, full-armoured, full-strenght fighting. Correct me, if i understood you wrong, but thats using a sword, not abusing. )

2) How much can you afford to pay for it?

3) Does it need to be historical or realistic?

So if you can inform us about those three questions, i am sure that we could offer you a narrowed-down suggestion that can be helpful to you.

Do keep in mind, that lifetime of the sword depends also about how are you using the sword. I have Hanwei Practical as my tournament blade, and it has served me for two years now. But i also know a fellow, who has already broke two swords from the same series because of errors in handling.

P.S.

To Sam Barris

You are quite right about your opinion. I simply would add, that as with anything for practical use, first think for what are you buying it. If you invest a years budget for ....say custom-designed rapier and then use it as shish-kebab skewer, then that's clearly abusing a good blade. Or taking sharp steel into re-enactment tournament, which crosses the borders from irresponsible to downright insane and criminal. However, if you buy a blunt sword for re-enactment fighting and you use if for the intended purposes, then i cant see anything wrong with it. A training sword (or a waster) is, for my humble opinion, not intended for ending a human life. I would also point out, that i am not trying to criticize anybody but would just point out that Jon may not need this blade sharpened.

Happy

Merlon
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon Sama wrote:
Albions have out right bended on me and not bended back.


.. i just want a sword that could take a beating. and realisticly..... in a battle ive allways pictured, clashing sword on sword. sword on a metal rimmed shield or hitting a guy in armour much more abusive then a free hanging soft log.

allso. the comment about price Luka. Souldnt a more expensive sword handle. and cut better then a less Expesive sword. you think its ok to abuse the darksword Craftsmanship but not albions and ATrims because they more expensive. we should just trust there a better sword based soley on price and documentaion? nonsense (i mean this is a friendly way, like jovial person would disagree with a buddy)

a sword is a weapon. i want to have faith in my weapon and to do so i like to test it..... dont judge me. = )

and yes whats wrong with having alittle fun

cheers

P.s remember this post was about the most abusable sword... not should we abuse swords


Albions and ATrims sure handle and cut better than cheaper swords. And probably are as durable or more than cheaper swords. Cheaper beaters are usually overbuilt to make up for poorer heat treatment or poorer steel or even with proper heat treat and steel they are overbuilt for people who like to use swords harder than it is accepted to be a normal use for a sword.. Theoretically you would be best with an expensive sword. BUT, there is always a chance that you will bend or break a blade if you use it for something you agree is sword abuse. So I thought you might be more comfortable using something that cost $300, not $600, $800 or $1000 if you know you might break it. If you said you want a good handling, durable cutter for normal use (tatamis, maybe bottles...) everyone would say you are best with Albion, ATrim or maybe new Valiant armoury lines...

P.S. No hard feelings of course... We are just discussing something here... Wink
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Granby (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

Posts: 443

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon if you want to know more about darksword armory swords you'd better pm jason woodard he's the man for these swords
he did many good reviews about them on the sword buyers guide.

cheers.
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Adam S.





Joined: 01 Sep 2006

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon,

If you don't mind I'd love to see pictures of both the ATrim and the Albion that you mentioned before. I've never seen that kind of damage done, and it sounds interesting.

~A
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