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Ryan W. Fabre
Location: Walker, Louisiana Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Mon 20 Jul, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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My first post whooo hooo!
I'll try to write in romanji for you.
Knight wa tebukuro hidatite de torisarimasu sorekara tsumamu. Kare ga tsuchi ni nagamemasu.
I hope that helped. It may have just confused your further. My Japanese is much worse than your much better English.
Gomen. Nihongo heta...~(-.-)~
Eibungaku de yoku dekimashita.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jul, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how the knight would have indicated his surrender, but it's thought that in some circumstances he might have given a token of some sort to his conqueror that was used for redemption later. Like a coat check ticket. 
From the 2003 Peter Finer catalogue:
| Quote: | In bronze, a heater-shaped shield charged with the Arms of Guy, Comte de Forez (1299-1358), in coloured enamels and pierced with three holes, at the upper corners and at the point of the shield.
Height: 3 in Width: 2 1/2 in
Guy, Comte de Forez-en-Auvergne, Seigneur de Thiers-en-Auvergne, d'Ussel et de Bessey-en-Bourbonnais, was the seventh Count of Forez and a general in the service of the French crown. He was born in 1299, married in 1318, succeeded his father in the title and lands in 1333 and died in 1358. His wife was Jeanne de Bourbon, fourth child and eldest daughter of Louis, Due de Bourbon (d.1342): she, remarkably, lived through the entire 14th century, being born in 1290 and dying in 1402. The badge shows Forez's Arms, De gueules, un dauphin d'or, a golden dolphin on a red ground, impaled with those of his wife, Seme de France a une bande de gueules, the ancient Bourbon Arms of gold fleurs-de-lys covering a blue ground, all erased by a red diagonal stripe. Forez was present at the battle of Poitiers in 1356, although not recorded as among the many prisoners taken there, and spent much of his adult life engaged in local and national conflicts, as the Hundred Years War blew hot and cold and occasionally affected the Auvergne.
Badges, such as this rare and high-quality example, are known to have been worn on knights' surcoats and are recorded as being taken as trophies should the knight be captured and held for ransom. They are also known to have been worn as symbols of office by the senior retainers of noblemen. The surcoat, a loose coat worn over armour, was worn from the days of mail until the late 14th century, during the course of which period it became gradually shorter and more shaped to the body. The term, though, is a relatively modern one, the contemporary term being cotte a armer, or coat armour: it is this expression that gives us the modern term 'coat of arms'.
As the knight became steadily more covered in armour in battle and tournament, so some means of identification of these anonymous figures became necessary. In a world where literacy was limited and people were familiar with simple imagery, the use of designs to identify individuals became common and gradually codified into what we now know as heraldry. An individual's heraldry also came to be used as a type of identification for his retainers, office-holders and followers.
When armed for the field or the tourney, the knight would wear his personal crest atop his helm and the remainder of his armorial bearings on his shield, on his coat armour - or surcoat - and on the coat armour of his horse. Practices varied in the use of heraldry on coat armour. Some devices, such as the principal charges from the knight's shield, would be painted or embroidered onto the cloth; sometimes, the entire shield of arms would be depicted in several places on the coat armour.
This ancient and very rare badge may well be an example of the latter practice and, if so, several of these would have been sewn to the coat armour of Guy de Forez and that of his horse. Capture in battle was as common as were battles during de Forez's lifetime and, for a knight, ransom was the preferable alternative to being clubbed to death by an archer's maul or stabbed into oblivion by the dagger of a man-at-arms. Writing late in the 14th century about his experience of capture by Gascon men-at-arms in English pay at the battle of Poitiers in 1356, the Comte de Dammartin indicates just how this badge may have been of use to Guy de Forez at the same period, as a form of receipt for his life:
'...another Gascon came up and demanded my pledge [to be his prisoner and thus be ransomed by him]. I answered that I was already a prisoner, but all the same I gave him my word, simply in order that he would protect me. He took an escutcheon from my coat armour and then abandoned me like the last man...Another man, who belonged to Sir John Blaunkminster then appeared and demanded my pledge...'
The confusion that reigned at the end of battles is thus apparent, with men-at-arms anxious to obtain as many captives as possible and, unable to collect them all, taking souvenirs from them in order to stake some sort of claim to them when ransoms were being obtained.
If this badge is not from Guy de Forez's personal surcoat, it may well be from the outer garments of one of his servants - in which case, because of its quality and original cost, it would have belonged to someone such as a messenger or herald, for whom it would have acted as guarantee of safe conduct and badge of office,
Literature: Hayward, J., Hoving, T. and Husband, T.B., The Secular Spirit: Life and Art in the Middle Ages (New York, 1975).
Sumption, J., The Hundred Years War, Vol. II: Trial by Fire (London 1999); ref. to the Comte de Dammartin at Poitiers, pp. 244-245.
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ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Ushio Kawana
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| Posted: Fri 24 Jul, 2009 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for all of your replies!
Mr. James R.Fox wrote:
| Quote: | | Sir he would eheathe his sword, pull off his right gauntlet, and hand it to the knighr he was surrendering to. |
Thanks I can imagine the scene.
Mr. Ryan W. Fabre wrote:
| Quote: | I'll try to write in romanji for you.
Knight wa tebukuro hidatite de torisarimasu sorekara tsumamu. Kare ga tsuchi ni nagamemasu. |
Thanks!
He wrote in romaji for me. 
He wrote "A knight pull off a gauntlet by using left hand. He throws it to the ground."
And I have one question.
Which is generally accepted, "hand it to" or "throws it to the ground"? 
Thanks Mr. Chad Arnow
I'm reading now.
I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Ryan W. Fabre
Location: Walker, Louisiana Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri 24 Jul, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad you found the romanji helpful.
"Hand it to" would be better. More polite.
Also if you need me translate or write something in romanji/hiragana/katakana/kanji I'd be happy to what I can. My nihongo is not as good as your english though. I will send you a message for the best way to contact me.
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Ushio Kawana
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| Posted: Mon 27 Jul, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mr.Ryan W. Fabre
| Quote: | | "Hand it to" would be better. More polite. |
I understood.
I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: |
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This is a very interesting thread! Thanks for your comments.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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David Craig
Location: Georgia Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon 10 Aug, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: How does the knight convey surrender? |
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A wise knight would ask for terms of surrender. Unconditional surrender leaves your fate entirely open to the victor, including executing you. The difference between surrender and capture can become clouded depending on the anger or ardor of the victor, and his level of charity at that moment.
In a tournament one could signal in some way surrender, and expect to live. In actual combat there would be no such assurance unless actually asked for and granted.
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