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Craig Peters
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Posted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | The association probably didn't crystallize before the 15th century or so; wasn't there a fairly recent thread about medieval European representations of Crusading-era Saracens that looked just like the knights of Christendom--including straight swords--with the exceptions of round shields and/or weird hats or turbans? |
That date sounds about right; I believe most of the illustrations I saw in the book in question were from the 15th century. But there may have been some from the 14th as well.
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Samuel Bena
Location: Slovakia Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
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Posted: Wed 02 Sep, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: A "sabre proper" in 15th century italian painting |
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Though the majority of altair pieces and religious paintings from the 15th century europe show the "Turks" armed with wickedly curved falchions , messers and the like , there is an exceptional paiting from Giovanni Bellini. His "Resurrection of Christ" painted 1475-79 shows both a curved sword with a falchionic "clipped point" ( the figure on far left;the feature seems to be also present on some messer pieces as well) as well as a "sabre-proper" ( the figure on the far right) , note the general S profile of the whole weapon. The curved blade , canted hilt , crossguard and (tiny) pommel are reminiscent of the sabres used by Ottomans / Hungarians and various Balkan people during the 15th/ early 16th century.
As a Venetian, Bellini might have seen a sabre for real , since during the second half of the 15th century a huge number of Greco-Albanian refugees fled from the Balkans and settled in various Italian states , where they served as bordermen / Stratiots. It might not be entirely impossible that the weapon depicted is of Stratioti origin , whose armamanet is described as similar to that of Turks.
Cheers ,
Samuel
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Posted: Sun 06 Sep, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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And Bellini was painting Turks. Not Saracens.
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Samuel Bena
Location: Slovakia Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
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Posted: Sun 06 Sep, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | And Bellini was painting Turks. Not Saracens. |
So? Were not/are not Turks "people from the Middle East" as well ?
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Sa'ar Nudel
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Posted: Mon 07 Sep, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Saracen is just a generic term to name all muslems during the crusades, not a specific national group.
12th century manuscripts show the saracens much alike crusaders: chainmail armours and straight swords; the major difference shown is the flags - cross vs. crescent moon.
Manuscripts from the mid-13th century onwards, show the saracens with sabers, though shallow curve, adjacent to the period mildly curved blades. One improtant book I recall is the chronicles by William of Tyre.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Posted: Sat 12 Sep, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Even the Europeans seem to have occasionally appreciated a distinction between Arabs, Syrians, Egyptians, etc. ("Saracens" proper for some authors) and Turks. Probably the ones who had learned from Byzantines about the difference in military habits between Arabs and Turks. "Saracens" with straight swords are usually intended to represent the warriors of the Middle Eastern Muslim principalities proper, who did mostly carry straight swords until well after the end of the Crusades, whereas the Turks used all manners of straight, curved, and slightly-curved blades early on, though the image that tends to stick with them is the one with the curved blade because they obviously made more use of curved swords than the Egyptians and Syrians and what-have-you.
Now that I think about the Bellini paintings again, though, I notice that it might not really matter whether he was depicting Arabs or Turks, since by the time he painted those stuff the Turks had conquered most of the Middle East anyway and their fashion were already beginning to widely replace the native panoplies with straight swords and all.
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