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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Fri 26 Jun, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Lyon wrote: | | Just to inject a bit of information about the craftsmanship needed to hand-make a thread: I had a book that I read several years ago (wish I could remember the title and knew where it has gone to) about the history and use of the thread (yes, a whole book on it!) and the author concluded that the earliest datable threads in iron(that he was aware of) dated to about 1440. The important note he made on it was that early threads had to be hand-made with chisels and files, so it was a major task to put a thread into iron (much much more work than wooden threads), moreso to thread a nut (need to make a thread-cutter in carbon steel and keep resharpening it) and that mass-produced machined threads only appear in the eighteenth and nineteenth century as a byproduct and input to industrialisation. To thread a carbon steel tang-end is even more of a pain as the chiselling stage must all be done hot, otherwise the chisel lines become fracture points, and you break off the thread and swear a lot. An early use was titling harness (bolt-on doubling plates); mostly high-end and expensive items. So having a threaded tang on a sword pre-1500 would have been partly a way of showing off, but wasn't necessarily an improvement structurally over peened tang-ends, as the threads were not precision cut and could easily loosen, even with locking nuts. |
Very interesting info. Amazing what secondary information you can sometimes pull out of the obscure niche books.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
Last edited by Steven Reich on Fri 26 Jun, 2009 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joel Minturn
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I was about to ask about manufacturing threads in the middle ages. Did they have a tap and dye set or were they done by hand. i can see cutting the threads with a chisel or file but how do you tap a hole using a chisel? I assume there is some trick I don't know about Hmm threading the piece while hot? granted that could back fire when the piece cools and locks on the threaded piece. One other question about threads. Being that the threads were made by hand what is the thinnest piece to be threaded or the finest pitched threads that can be made.
But the way that was written makes it seem that a thread piece was known since he didn't have to explain unscrewing something. Could he have assumed that the entire piece was threaded including the handle so thats how it would stay in place?
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Peter Lyon
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 27 Jun, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Joel Minturn wrote: | | I was about to ask about manufacturing threads in the middle ages. Did they have a tap and dye set or were they done by hand. i can see cutting the threads with a chisel or file but how do you tap a hole using a chisel? |
Taps were used I think, but each tap had to be hand-made to match the particular thread being produced - there was absolutely no standardisation. Also threads were very course early on, which would have made locking nuts a good safety feature.
Still hammering away
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 28 Jun, 2009 2:52 pm Post subject: Threading |
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Thank you Peter great info.
| Peter Lyon wrote: | | The important note he made on it was that early threads had to be hand-made with chisels and files, so it was a major task to put a thread into iron (much much more work than wooden threads), moreso to thread a nut (need to make a thread-cutter in carbon steel and keep resharpening it) and that mass-produced machined threads only appear in the eighteenth and nineteenth century as a byproduct and input to industrialisation. To thread a carbon steel tang-end is even more of a pain as the chiselling stage must all be done hot, otherwise the chisel lines become fracture points, ... |
Almost all tangs would have been iron so I do not think they would try to cut threads in steel material, if anything they may have tried to quench them after cutting but this would be highly doubtful.
| Peter Lyon wrote: | | An early use was titling harness (bolt-on doubling plates); mostly high-end and expensive items. So having a threaded tang on a sword pre-1500 would have been partly a way of showing off, but wasn't necessarily an improvement structurally over peened tang-ends, as the threads were not precision cut and could easily loosen, even with locking nuts. |
This can be seen in many major museums, often pieces attached with very large wing nuts 
Best
Craig
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Benjamin Floyd II
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | With respect, however, I don't think we can say that the appearance of the screw pommel in this single plate in a single book can be taken as evidence that screwed-on pommels were in use at this time. *Lots* of things are shown in the various Fechtbücher that weren't in use--were never even made--at this time. There are specialized swords and pollaxes for armored combat with extra spikes and hooks, etc., shown in several books (e.g., Talhoffer's 1459 Alte Armatur und Ringkunst), but no evidence for them has ever been found. Likewise, Talhoffer shows lots of infernal war machines (mostly taken from an earlier book called Bellafortis) that not only never were built but couldn't have been made to work.
Of course, this isn't proof that screwed-on pommels *weren't* in use, either; you can rarely prove a negative. I'm just saying that more evidence than this would be required to make for a good argument considering that, as far as I know, not a single example is extant. |
Sorry for the necromancy, but I thought I'd add this pic in response to the quote above.
 Attachment: 11.04 KB
Krieg School of Historical Swordsmanship
A HEMA Alliance Affliate
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