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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac, what is the sword? I like it.
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Jonathan Atkin





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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What kind of bascinet is that in zac's picture and where can I view the original, if anyone knows.
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac Evans wrote:
There is a good site with lovely late 14th century armour. I'm planning a kit that looks a bit like this:
http://www.man.poznan.pl/~ritter/Wieruszyce20...e06_35.jpg


What would you call the green fabric garment that he's wearing?

I own something similar. I'm curious what others call it.

thanks

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Atkin wrote:
What kind of bascinet is that in zac's picture and where can I view the original, if anyone knows.


It looks to be an early great bascinet. Basically, a bascinet with a plate bevor.

Happy

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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Zac Evans wrote:
There is a good site with lovely late 14th century armour. I'm planning a kit that looks a bit like this:
http://www.man.poznan.pl/~ritter/Wieruszyce20...e06_35.jpg


What would you call the green fabric garment that he's wearing?

I own something similar. I'm curious what others call it.

thanks


Jupon if I am not mistaken
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Jonathan Atkin





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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thought I saw something similar to that bascinet but when you open up the visor it has strips of metal coming up in front of the wearer's face that remind me of the top of a castle wall. I thought it was more of a 15th c. Helm then a 14th but then again I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys (does anyone know what I'm talking about?) I'll do some more digging Happy
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 3:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Atkin wrote:
I thought I saw something similar to that bascinet but when you open up the visor it has strips of metal coming up in front of the wearer's face that remind me of the top of a castle wall. I thought it was more of a 15th c. Helm then a 14th but then again I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys (does anyone know what I'm talking about?) I'll do some more digging Happy


I think you're talking about an armet at Churburg Castle. It's lacking its visor but the chin guards are crenellated, like a picket fence almost. It's a 15th century piece and unique as far as I know.

Happy

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Jonathan Atkin





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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Its very similar to what I'm thinking of I forget who but some armourer did a repo of it and gave it that visor in zac's photo I think that's what stemmed my confusion. I think the guy who did the repo showed it on here or on that other forum that mostly geared toward sca I'm not sure, guess its something to do when I get home ha ha. I'll see if I can find it.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I think you're talking about an armet at Churburg Castle. It's lacking its visor but the chin guards are crenellated, like a picket fence almost. It's a 15th century piece and unique as far as I know.


First and only thing I thought of.
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David E. Farrell




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun, 2009 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Atkin wrote:
Its very similar to what I'm thinking of I forget who but some armourer did a repo of it and gave it that visor in zac's photo I think that's what stemmed my confusion. I think the guy who did the repo showed it on here or on that other forum that mostly geared toward sca I'm not sure, guess its something to do when I get home ha ha. I'll see if I can find it.


if you search, you'll find a few reproductions of it (look up Churburg S-18 Armet). I have one, that I commissioned through Oleg Yanchuk:




The visor is a speculative one based off extant great bascinets. From the front with the visor down, it looks a lot like a great bascinet with a maille rather than plate throat protection. From the side, on the other hand, it is neat mix of armet and bascinet lines.

The S-18 armet is not the only early armet, that is for sure, but it seems to be the only one with 'teeth'. The date on it is about 1410-1420, based on some artwork in a few manuscripts. Going before 1400 with it would probably be a pretty big stretch.

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Robert S. Haile





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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun, 2009 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting. Do you know of any other early armets specifically that date to the early 1400's?
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun, 2009 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert S. Haile wrote:
Very interesting. Do you know of any other early armets specifically that date to the early 1400's?


This one supposedly dates to 1410. Interestingly it doesn't seem to have ever had a visor.
http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/early_armet_med.jpg

This armour also supposedly dates from before 1420:
http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/churburg_s18.jpg

I have come across online pictures of an Italian reenactor wearing armour based on the examples above:
http://www.silverflower.org/fotosito/tirolo/casteltirolo07.jpg
http://www.silverflower.org/fotosito/tirolo/casteltirolo05.jpg
http://www.silverflower.org/fotosito/frassino...o05_20.jpg
http://www.silverflower.org/fotosito/tirolo/casteltirolo02.jpg

I suspect that armour and helmets like these may have been limited to Italy and never got to France and England.
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David E. Farrell




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jun, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa posted some good pics.

The S-18 suit is a composite with parts that range from (I think) 1390 to about 1430. I can't honestly remember if it is a working-life composite or not though.

As for early armets: there are, I believe, about a half-dozen or so extant pre-1430 Armets. There is a really nice thread on another forum about them:

http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=687

Also in that thread are a number of effigies that show early armets.


some quick notes:

this helmet:
http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/early_armet_med.jpg

has some odd things about it, and you can read about it on the thread I mentioned previously. Specifically, it seems to have been reconstructed at some point and some of its dimensions don't make much sense. It is unclear if visor attachments were removed in this process. It is known though, that there are a few examples of helmets like this in the fighting treatises of Fiore Dei Liberi (circa 1410 - and this is basically where the 1410 date on that helmet comes from), and that other early 15th northern Italian artwork shows helmets like this and the other early armets. They seem to have been relatively limited in popularity at first, not coming into their own until the mid-15th C.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun, 2009 12:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the links and the information. I forgot about the armet in the Royal Armouries, even though I have a picture of it somewhere! Presumably most armets around in the late 1420ies were limited to Italy though. I was under the impression that outside Italy, the bascinet and great bascinet continued to be used well into the late 1430ies.

So S-18 is actually a composite, what a let down. Sad Saying that I do vaguely remember a Venetian (?) statue of saint from circa 1420 showing similar armour.

Edit:
Found a picture of the RA armet:
http://collections.royalarmouries.org/index.p...&pg=23

Unfortunately the visor is missing.
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David E. Farrell




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jun, 2009 4:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa wrote:

So S-18 is actually a composite, what a let down. Sad Saying that I do vaguely remember a Venetian (?) statue of saint from circa 1420 showing similar armour.


I think there are a couple of statues/effigies and possibly a fresco (supposedly of Nicollo III D'este in Castello Estenze) depicting armour very much like the S-18, in addition to Fiore's MSs. As far as composites go, it is pretty realistic. I think the biggest offenders are the shoulder protection (articulated shoulders w/ decorated besguews) which seem to be the latest part of the harness (1420-1430), and don't seem to match up well with the other bits.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Robert S. Haile





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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 12:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies everyone. Sorry to bump this thread again, but I've got one last request.

I've pretty much decided to move my kit back to the later 14th century or the very beginning of the 15th century (I'm quite keen on wearing a Jupon, you see). Now I have but to find a helm, bascinet or otherwise that I like the look of. If anyone would like to post some late 14th c./ early 15th c. helms I would be greatly appreciative. I've attempted to research and find them online, but have thus far found nothing but a few styles. I'm interested in all of them, so feel free to post them even if they are rare.

For the record Mr. Farrell's helm is my favorite thus far, though incorporating into a kit with a jupon may be iffy.

Edit: To clarify, I'm mostly interested in varying visor styles. Helms of a more domed style are also preferred to the conical counterparts, but don't hesitate to post them as well. I may yet be persuaded.
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David E. Farrell




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert S. Haile wrote:
Thanks for the replies everyone. Sorry to bump this thread again, but I've got one last request.

I've pretty much decided to move my kit back to the later 14th century or the very beginning of the 15th century (I'm quite keen on wearing a Jupon, you see). Now I have but to find a helm, bascinet or otherwise that I like the look of. If anyone would like to post some late 14th c./ early 15th c. helms I would be greatly appreciative. I've attempted to research and find them online, but have thus far found nothing but a few styles. I'm interested in all of them, so feel free to post them even if they are rare.

For the record Mr. Farrell's helm is my favorite thus far, though incorporating into a kit with a jupon may be iffy.

Edit: To clarify, I'm mostly interested in varying visor styles. Helms of a more domed style are also preferred to the conical counterparts, but don't hesitate to post them as well. I may yet be persuaded.


That puts you into the era of the bascinet. Or at least where it is by far the most common enclosed helmet worn with a full harness. A kettle hat could also be worn, but more usually with a less-than-complete harness. Even in ~1410, my S-18 armet would be really quite rare (though Jupons are still worn in this time, but with decreasing popularity).

The prominence of the back-point will vary - some examples have very high points, some a more subtle shaping. Two visor styles are available - the pointed or more rounded (this seems more popular in Germany). And then there are two visor attachment styles: side-pivot and central pivot (klapvisor - also more popular in Germany). I would say it would likely be a bit early for a great bascinet. Instead, you'll probably have a bascinet with at least a quilted aventail, though often it would also have maille over it.

edited to add:

this isn't a bad place to start: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_bascinet.html

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Robert S. Haile





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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm...I'm guessing Great Bascinets were generally worn only with alwite harnesses. The Great Helm had long passed from use by then if I'm correct, so I'm pretty much stuck with a houndskull and only two varying visors.
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David E. Farrell




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert S. Haile wrote:
Hmm...I'm guessing Great Bascinets were generally worn only with alwite harnesses. The Great Helm had long passed from use by then if I'm correct, so I'm pretty much stuck with a houndskull and only two varying visors.


pretty much - though the historical record does show *many* variations on the visored bascinet, even though the general form remains much the same except for a few key points.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Robert S. Haile





Joined: 16 Dec 2007

Posts: 126

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I see...Know of any books or websites that might display such variations?

Also, I may be crazy, but I think I'd heard of visored Great Helms coming into use around this time period. Know anything about those?
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