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Bryce W




Location: Oshawa Ontario, Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jun, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

while brains and watermelon may both be mostly comprised of water, there is a vast difference in textures. While it is very sensitive to any form of trauma, it is surprisingly dense and firm from what i have seen (dissection of sheep brains from highschool biology...) i'm not sure whether thats a good indication as they had been in some form of preserving agent, but all the same they were not soft or spongy in the least (unlike the inside of watermelon). overall, including the shell or rind of the melon it may be similar to a brain by itself but it would not be close to matching that of the skull.
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jun, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

cadavers and preserved brains are more dehydrated and also 'tougher' due to the crosslinking of proteins from formaldehyde. Live brains are a little more sliceable :-) Just like you see from Dr. Hannibal Lectur .... Hannibal the cannible...
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jun, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:
Bone is NOT mostly water, therefore your argument is invalid. The density of bone, also measured by xray attenuation is approximately 500 Houndsfield units avg wtih the cortex being even more dense. The brain is similar to watermelon, not the head which includes the skull. For reference the Houndsfield scale is a quantitative measure of radiodensity water has an attenuation of 0 Hounsfield units (HU) while air is -1000 HU and metal is about +1000 HU.

Its all about the skull...


A human head is _not_ mostly bone, so what's your point? About 1kg of skull (is this figure for wet or dry?) in about 5kg of head, for an average density of about the same as water (or about 5% more than water if you don't include the air spaces).

The density of a head is _not_ about the skull. The resistance to damage of a head, OTOH, depends very much on the skull. Not surprisingly, a watermelon can be a poor substitute for a head.

(It's misleading to introduce radiodensity, since it isn't a measure of mass density which is what the show originally mentioned probably meant.)
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having the same density does not mean that something will behave alike when hit.
The main thing is how the material reacts to beeing hit, and what hits it. Cutting something has too many variables to be reduced to newtonian physics.

A skull, beeing a lot harded than a watermelon, will react in a totaly different way. A coconut would be closer, though I'm not sure exactly how hard the the skull is.

As far as i recall, the skulls with sword injuries i've seen go about half way through at the most.

Meat, however, offers almost no resistance to swords at all. even a quick strike from the wrist will cut to the bone of the upper arm or neck, based on tests against pork ham. A good blow will cutt straight through a pork leg subsantially thicker than a human thigh.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Percival Koehl




Location: Vancouver, Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Meat, however, offers almost no resistance to swords at all. even a quick strike from the wrist will cut to the bone of the upper arm or neck, based on tests against pork ham. A good blow will cutt straight through a pork leg subsantially thicker than a human thigh.


A good point. Moreover, any flesh prepared for human consumption has been treated and possibly processed as well, such as having all the blood drained from it. Meat that has not been drained of blood is much tougher, to my knowledge.

I also think that a watermelon is a poor substitute for a human head, the latter being much harder and more resilient than the former. It is no wonder that many suicide attempts fail, as the human body is much tougher than many Hollywood would films would suggest that it is.

'A knight indifferent to a lady's honour has lost his own.'
-Chrétien de Troyes (fl. 1180), Percival or the Tale of the Grail
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jun, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Timo Nieminen wrote:
Chris Artman wrote:
Bone is NOT mostly water, therefore your argument is invalid. The density of bone, also measured by xray attenuation is approximately 500 Houndsfield units avg wtih the cortex being even more dense. The brain is similar to watermelon, not the head which includes the skull. For reference the Houndsfield scale is a quantitative measure of radiodensity water has an attenuation of 0 Hounsfield units (HU) while air is -1000 HU and metal is about +1000 HU.

Its all about the skull...


A human head is _not_ mostly bone, so what's your point? About 1kg of skull (is this figure for wet or dry?) in about 5kg of head, for an average density of about the same as water (or about 5% more than water if you don't include the air spaces).

The density of a head is _not_ about the skull. The resistance to damage of a head, OTOH, depends very much on the skull. Not surprisingly, a watermelon can be a poor substitute for a head.

(It's misleading to introduce radiodensity, since it isn't a measure of mass density which is what the show originally mentioned probably meant.)


The point is that the skull and brain are vastly different in terms of density and rigidity (tensile sternght, modulus of elasticity, whatever...). Anyone saying a watermelon is similar to a head is silly BECAUSE of the SKULL. Whether you measure it in mass density or radiodensity or even the avg water content is pointless since the skull makes any comparison to watermelon a moot point.
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 11:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:
Timo Nieminen wrote:
Chris Artman wrote:
Bone is NOT mostly water, therefore your argument is invalid.


A human head is _not_ mostly bone, so what's your point?


The point is that the skull and brain are vastly different in terms of density and rigidity (tensile sternght, modulus of elasticity, whatever...). Anyone saying a watermelon is similar to a head is silly BECAUSE of the SKULL. Whether you measure it in mass density or radiodensity or even the avg water content is pointless since the skull makes any comparison to watermelon a moot point.


I fully agree. Indeed, I commented on the essence of this myself in my previous posts in this thread (Not clearly enough? Certainly not at length, but - since it is so glaringly obvious - what wordage should it need?)

Anyway, thanks for the clarification. If you are were claiming that the mass densities were different, or that the density was important for behaviour when cutting (as your "your argument is invalid" might be read), then I'd ask for numbers for what you think the density of a head really is. But if you're basically emphasising my 2nd point, nothing more needs saying.

(But while it might not be needed, I can unnecessarily add that the cuttability of a block of dry pine versus that of a head makes for an excellent example.)
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A Visser




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Jul, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is always difficult to get something to cut that has the same properties as the original medium. In this case the head.
I do not think a watermelon qualifies as a representable substitute. I'm a huge fan of eating these things, and I can cut one with a normal kitchen knife of which I do not have the confidence it can cut someones head in half. Not even half way..... Wink

It is possible to cut through a head though. One historical example comes to mind. I have read this in an article. This is the case of the debated remains of Floris V, count of Holland (1254-1295). He was taken hostage and killed during a rescue attempt.

Anyway, the remains first thought to be his, but by others claimed to belong to a 400 year older Carolingian nobleman, showed about 21 sword cuts. Most of them to the upper body. One of them cleanly severed the left arm just below the shoulder. Two others, for now more interesting injuries, are the ones to the head. One of the sword blows cut deep into the back and left side of the skull. The attacker also succeeded in cutting a slice of 6,5 cm from the skull. Examination of this injury show that with this last blow, the attackers sword must have been stuck in the wound, and he had to force it loose.

Whether the remains belong to a Carolingian noble of really to count Floris V doesn't really matter. We at least have a clue about the type of sword that was used in this attack. Depending on the dates a type X to XIII could have been the culprit. In any way a sword dedicated to cutting. In case of a Carolingian noble it is clear. In case of Floris V it is to my guess probably one of the latest fashion. This considering the one handling the sword was Gijsbrecht van Amstel. this was the most important nobleman of that time in Holland. I guess he would have the funds to obtain a weapon according the latest fashion.

Reading this and regarding the ease with which a watermelon is cut, I think I can say that a watermelon is definitely not a representable substitute for a head.

It is all well to talk about density (of which I absolutely do not have any knowledge other then watermelon: tastes better) and such , but I think this simple comparison already provides the data you need.
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