[Jeremy V. Krause]

Hello everyone,

In my never ending quest to increase the historical accuracy- or to decrease the blatant non-historical aspects of my collection; I have began thinking about the appearance and sheen of the steel used on my reproductions.

I know that the wrought iron used on period pieces does indeed look quite different than the modern tool steel utilized on hilts and such. For this reason I am going to opt for wrought whenever I can on my pieces.

I also opt for fine silver instead of sterling as I feel it's sheen and degree of patination are qualitatively different.

So what about the steel used on the blade of our beautiful reproductions by the higher end makers? What was the steel used following the era of pattern-welding? Previously I thought that it was a fairly homogenous material and that the steels used on our pieces really , pretty much looks the same. Am I wrong? Was there some degree of "folding" of different materials creating a "texture" to the steel that is missing from our reproductions?

I am interested in this possible difference. For instance, I am going to order an eating knife from Tod incorporating shear steel as it is felt to be a better representative of a historic example. I am eager to see the difference between this material and the modern steel which we usually see.

I realize this post touches an ENORMOUS multitude of factors and multitudes of possible angles. I am looking at the era 1100-1500, although I am sure that there may have been huge changes in the methodology and production of steels.

Perhaps there was a tendency of steels appearance changing over this period- I don't know.

What do folks think?

[Craig Johnson]

Hi Jeremy

You are right it is a huge subject. I would say it is much dependent on the period you chose and the type of item you are wishing to depict.

In the case of a knife from the early medieval period I would probably go with a welded on edge of shear steel or carburized iron edge on an iron blade. As you get closer to the 1500's you could start to do some layering or inset edges or steel blades with the edge heat treated.

It is a very diverse group of options for a knife through this period and each region and time period would have a favored method and some options.

It is important to remember that there where many answers to what a knife should be like and to embrace them as they where is to understand the depth and diversity of the Medieval smith.

I would expect Tod could do an excellent job of incorporating a shear steel into a blade in a period way and give you a great result as a knife and as something that has the visuals of the period blade.

Best
Craig

[Jeremy V. Krause]

[C Bosh]

I am not too sure on the appearance of the iron and steel used in knives, but I have two swords made from more traditionally mediaeval style smeltings. And what is obvious in affecting some of their appearance is the polishing style, hand polished or muscle / water powered polishing gives a different result in appearance to an electric machine with revolutions of over 8000 per minute .
One of the blades has had a sister peace of its material tested, is not of a uniform carbon percentage through the blade varying from between around .6 -.7, percent, then taken with the forging process, which will again affect the carbon content in the steel, it is not of a modern homogenous standard, although well within the acceptable limits for a good quality sword blade, properly heat-treated.
This blade has been hand polished/ ground with a wheel etc and varying stones, this has given the blade a wonderful cloudy grey, rich velvety colour. This colour is incredibly hard to capture on camera, due to reflections, and mainly my lack of skill.
Other things to be considered would be, even in the Middle Ages, although pattern welding as we know it, is supposed to be non-existent , tests have shown that numerous swords were made of composite construction,-softcore, hard outer skin, and vice versa, numerous combinations may have been tried. Indeed the Mary Rose sword is said to have two hard steel edges welded to a softer core. Maybe some of these transition lines would be visible on the blades with different polishing techniques ? After all Damascene pattern almost disappears with modern machine polishing, and has to be chemically enhanced afterwards.[/b]

[Peter Johnsson]

As has already been said before, the look of steel & iron would have varied greatly.
Both methods and degree of polish would have varied in weapons and tools as would have the material itself.
Sometimes the subtle shading and irregularities of the material would have been readily apparent and sometimes the surface would have been indestinguishable from modern steel.

With well preserved swords this is obvious. A polished surface can be uniform and without any obvious traces of the heterogenous nature of the steel.
I have seen other blades where the structure of the steel has been more visible, but that is normally only if there is some corrosion or patination.

It takes a very high polish or corrosion/etching for the colors or shadings to come out.
We may also today use less refined steel when we smelt it for use in reproductions of historical blades. As we take the trouble to manufacture a material with some character we want this to show. In historical times they wanted a material that was as even as possible.

This is a little bit like the aesthetic ideal that is common today: we appreciate marks from the hammer and forging scale in the finished object, since this is a sign it was indeed forged. In ancient times they wanted a nicely finished object, since that is a mark of quality and skill.
The polish on blades was often accomplished with rotating wheels where a surface of leather was loaded with a abrasive compound of increasing fineness. Very fine grit was used to reach final finish (and not always very healthy materials, like arsenic). These polishing methods does not differ much from what can be done with fine grit belts or felt wheels: in essence it is the same process. Greatest difference is the power source: electric motor instead of hand crank or water wheel.

Interesting questions as it puts a perspective on what we appreciate and look for in both historical and contemporary craft.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

Before the battle, their don't show weapons, could reflect the sun. (V century - Procopius)

The blades were finished well (VI century. Imperator Maurizius)

An Italian author, tells us that the blades were forged with a subsequent first grinding. (XIII century- Boccia) There were specialized workshops for grinding finish.

We think that the degree of finish was nice enough. Material differences tend to disappear with a good finish. (I say this, no author.)

[Jared Smith]

There was a new brazil nut type sword posted very recently that was stated to be made from "bloomery steel" if I remember it right. At least in the photo, it was indistinguishable from a modern homogeneous blade. I suspect this is because it was very well done, fluxed, and kept clean throughout the process. Then, polished to nearly perfect finish that it seems a majority of buyers now expect in replicas.

Some custom offerings have stated that 1018 mild steel was used for furniture, and depending upon finishing, it can have a lot of character even though it is just homogeneous iron with low carbon. You might like some hand forged furniture that is hand forged and not polished to perfection. I have heat blued some non-weapon items (rail spike knife, bottle opener, hook, etc.) made from 1018 and cooled them with WD-40. They actually resist rust fairly well and have gray to blue to black final appearance depending upon cleanliness, and temperature. (Have not mastered control of color yet.)

If thinking of pattern welded items, the more elaborate and complex composite patterns I have seen seems to be on spear heads as opposed to knives and blades. For knives, I actually greatly prefer non-historic patterns that bring twisted layers into the cutting edge. (This is from a performance point of view in slicing for knives.)

[Peter Johnsson]

[Peter Johnsson]

And another example, just to underline the complexity of the topic. An original sax blade and some roman spathae were recently polished with japanese techniques showing a very fine hada and a nice hamon. The undulating line of the hamon on the sax blade suggests this may have been an intended feature. Something was done to get the wavy line and not just a line following the thickness of the blade as a result of cooling. If this was an appreciated feature of the blade, they must have been finished much like japanese blades...
...and we are talking about "simple" sax blades.

That you see dark pits and lines in these blades that have been given a high polish in modern times, is since black oxide still remains in rust "scars". Originally irregularities in structure would have been much more subtle in look. Mostly.

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

Peter,
thanks for these photos.

Clarification. Gender differences in the materials tend to be confused with a good finish, to use a template, let's say a little 'less finishing Albion. If the finish is driven at high levels, these differences tend to reappear. It is no coincidence that some analysis of the material, the specimens used in the metallurgical industry (not for swords, but for mechanical components) the finish is like a mirror, (the next test with Nital acid for microscopic analysis) differences of color or foreign inclusions, are also evident by eye. We can assume that the swords in Europe, in generally, had a good finish, but not a super-finishing.

[David Sutton]

This essay might be of interest.

Its by Stefan Maeder and concerns the use of Japanese sword polishing techniques to reveal the surface structure of period European swords, which Peter mentions above. Theres some interesting info on the appearance of period swords and sword polishing in Europe. There is also this brilliant quote from a letter sent by the Ostrogothic King Theodoric to a king of the Varni in the late 5th Century which gives some indication of the level of finish on Dark Age swords:

“Together with black trunks (of moor-oak) and indigenous blond
boys your fraternity has chosen swords for us, that are able even to cut
through armour, and which I praise more for the quality of their iron than
for the gold on them. Their polished clarity is shining so strong, that they
reflect with utmost clearness the faces of those who look at them. Their
edges run so regularly towards the point, that one is tempted to assume
that they were not shaped by files, but formed in the smelting-furnace.
Their midsection, skillfully wrought with hollows, appears to be covered
with swirling worms, and there are so manyfold shadows, that one might
believe the shining metal to be interwoven with many colours. This metal is
ground on your grindstone and polished with your most famous powder so
diligently, until its´ steely shine becomes a mirror for men. This powder is
provided to you by the natural treasures of your country and may its´
possession bring singular fame upon you. Regarding their beauty such
swords may appear as the work of Vulcanus, who is said to have ennobled
his craft with such skill, that everything he crafted appeared to have been
made not by human but by divine power.”

Japanese Sword－Appraisal/刀剣の鑑定
Its´ Significance for Archaeo-metallurgical Research within International
Archaeology and Materials Science
Stefan Maeder, Kokugakuin University, Tokyo 2006

www.schwertbruecken.de/pdf/sigjapswocu.pdf

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

A letter of gratitude. If it was common because show gratitude?
Maybe you can interpret that it was not the norm mirror polished sword?
Perhaps a taste of the owner, but perhaps not manufacturing, apart from these specific swords, of course.
another thought, why, today, we use acids to highlight the texture of damask? No, it is less evident, probably.
just my thought

[Timo Nieminen]

Note the "polished with your most famous powder". The region these gift-swords were from was famous for sword-polishing, or at least, as a source of an abrasive for sword-polishing.

Al-Kindi on Frankish swords: "Their structure resembles the character of the foreign Tabari clothes [1] and the structure of the rings of armour; they are white of ornamentation [2], red of ground [3] after throwing [4], and before throwing nothing of it appears."

[1] Tabaristan was famous for embroidery.
[2] Probably high-phosphorus portions in the pattern-welded blade.
[3] The rest of the blade. "Ground" suggests that the "ornamentation" appears as patches in a continuous "ground", but he uses the same terms for crucible steel blades, so these might just carry over from that. "Red" appears to be a mystery - darker, yes, but red? Hoyland and Gilmour [5] suggest this might be a characteristic colour while the etchant is still there.
[4] "Throwiing" as in throwing on the etchant.
[5] R. G. Hoyland, B. Gilmour, "Medieval Islamic swords and swordmaking", Gibb, 2006. Translation of al-Kindi, commentaries, etc.

[Michael Edelson]

Peter,

Thank you for posting those great pictures and the accompanying explanations. It's rare to see a photo with that much small detail.

I too have some photos to share of swords from the Metropolitain Museum of Art. This is the display as it appeared in 2008:



The first is the sword in the middle:






This is the sword on the left:









This is their famous and often reproduced type XIV:




You can see all kinds of nastiness in the fuller.

Any comments you would care to make on these photos would be appreciated.

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

Michael you are great.
Here some details of an original sword used by the emperors. The sword never fought.

Michael, how do you post pictures so big? I had to reduce the resolution of my much. is a mystery.

[Michael Edelson]

Well the size restriction is supposedly 1200 by 1600, but it wouldn't let me do that even though the images fit within that limit, so I kept reducing them in tiny steps until it went through. The system is glitchy...it let me post it, but I can't edit it.

So what sword is that in your pics? Do you have a picture of the whole thing? If not, what kind is it? Longsword, arming sword sword, etc?

Nathan, Chad, all you admin types...please lift the size restriction on linked images. It's a huge pain in the buttocks.

[Chad Arnow]

[Jared Smith]

[Maurizio D'Angelo]